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Old 12-07-2015, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Arizona
1,599 posts, read 1,269,504 times
Reputation: 4860

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I can't help but think of principles of behavior modification. The most rapid and reinforcing way to change behavior is punishment. That's a cold and ugly scientific fact.

Somewhere around the middle of the last century that scientific principle became politically repugnant. So we made the more "civilized" decision to attempt to alter social behavior with reward, or "help."

Unfortunately whatever behavior you reward you increase. And too many of us confuse enabling with being kind. For some reason an awful lot of us feel an intense need these days to prove that we are kind.

We have had a political party in control for too many years which fails to consider basic human nature when making its decisions. Bottom line is we don't know how to help.

Edited to add: That is assuming Government help is really an attempt to help and not something else.
I'd like to see some evidence to back up that "fact," because from everything I've read, the opposite is true. And the US has zero problem with punishing people. We have the largest prison population in the WORLD. People are sentenced for years for things here they might not even get arrested for in other countries. Then once they are released, they are dumped out on the streets with no money, no job, no help (family or societal), and a record. How are they supposed to start over? That is precisely why we also have such a high rearrest and conviction rate. Norway, on the other hand, treats its prisoners like people. They go through extensive rehab and counseling while locked up and they are aided in finding work once they get out. They rearrest and conviction rate there is almost ZERO.

To fix the "Justin's" in the US IS a social task. Start with his mom. If she finds out she's pregnant and doesn't want to be a mom, she needs quick, easy access to an affordable abortion. Problem solved before it starts.

If she decided she does want to be a mom, she needs affordable healthcare to cover the costs of pregnancy, delivery and the medical needs of her and her child. She needs extended maternity leave when he is born so she can be home and really bond with and take care of her baby. Next she needs a full time job that pays a LIVING WAGE so she doesn't have to overwork and can be home to parent him in the evenings and on weekends and be able to play an ACTIVE ROLE in his schooling and activities. "Justin" needs a strong k-12 education and the knowledge that once he graduates, higher education is going to be easily accessible for him (as in there are many options available and student debt won't become a burden) or that a good paying job is available if he chooses not to advance his education.

The reason we are seeing an increase in people like this is because we have not made many improvements in our education system and poor kids have a very unfair disadvantage when it comes to college. When you are raised at the poverty level, the idea of taking on thousands of dollars in student debt is very daunting and discouraging, so many poor kids skip the opportunity even if they are just as smart and capable as their wealthier peers. We are also seeing a widening gap between the rich and the poor and a shrinking middle class. More and more people are living in poverty or at lower middle class and just scrapping by. It's a hard cycle for families to break. So we have s choice, we can either pay to make kids productive members of society who will grow up to become future contributors or we can pay to house them in jail. I choose the first option.
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:03 PM
 
5,166 posts, read 2,994,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
Then once they are released, they are dumped out on the streets with no money, no job, no help (family or societal), and a record.
I think this may be an outdated viewpoint of what happens in prison. At least here in MN we have rehabilitative programs, job training, chemical dependency counseling, education, halfway house placement and community follow-up after release.

Apparently with some Minnesotans you have to get their attention before you can help them.
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Old 12-07-2015, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Arizona
1,599 posts, read 1,269,504 times
Reputation: 4860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I think this may be an outdated viewpoint of what happens in prison. At least here in MN we have rehabilitative programs, job training, chemical dependency counseling, education, halfway house placement and community follow-up after release.

Apparently with some Minnesotans you have to get their attention before you can help them.
There are programs available sure, but they are not mandatory (at least not everywhere) and they obviously aren't working very well.

Every troubled person needs a wake up call and a helping hand to guide them back to a positive path. Degrading and torturing people has never worked and just makes the person believe the bad things they think about themselves are true and that they have no value. Why would anyone who feels that way try to improve their life? They feel unworthy and hopeless so they just give up.

Then there is also this problem.

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11...-about-sexting
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
5,314 posts, read 2,886,557 times
Reputation: 6786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
I'd like to see some evidence to back up that "fact," because from everything I've read, the opposite is true. And the US has zero problem with punishing people. We have the largest prison population in the WORLD. People are sentenced for years for things here they might not even get arrested for in other countries. Then once they are released, they are dumped out on the streets with no money, no job, no help (family or societal), and a record. How are they supposed to start over? That is precisely why we also have such a high rearrest and conviction rate. Norway, on the other hand, treats its prisoners like people. They go through extensive rehab and counseling while locked up and they are aided in finding work once they get out. They rearrest and conviction rate there is almost ZERO.

To fix the "Justin's" in the US IS a social task. Start with his mom. If she finds out she's pregnant and doesn't want to be a mom, she needs quick, easy access to an affordable abortion. Problem solved before it starts.

If she decided she does want to be a mom, she needs affordable healthcare to cover the costs of pregnancy, delivery and the medical needs of her and her child. She needs extended maternity leave when he is born so she can be home and really bond with and take care of her baby. Next she needs a full time job that pays a LIVING WAGE so she doesn't have to overwork and can be home to parent him in the evenings and on weekends and be able to play an ACTIVE ROLE in his schooling and activities. "Justin" needs a strong k-12 education and the knowledge that once he graduates, higher education is going to be easily accessible for him (as in there are many options available and student debt won't become a burden) or that a good paying job is available if he chooses not to advance his education.

The reason we are seeing an increase in people like this is because we have not made many improvements in our education system and poor kids have a very unfair disadvantage when it comes to college. When you are raised at the poverty level, the idea of taking on thousands of dollars in student debt is very daunting and discouraging, so many poor kids skip the opportunity even if they are just as smart and capable as their wealthier peers. We are also seeing a widening gap between the rich and the poor and a shrinking middle class. More and more people are living in poverty or at lower middle class and just scrapping by. It's a hard cycle for families to break. So we have s choice, we can either pay to make kids productive members of society who will grow up to become future contributors or we can pay to house them in jail. I choose the first option.

Great post.

This is it, in a nutshell. No matter which way we slice the pie, we WILL pay the piper. There's no way around it. So, I say we pay upfront and avoid the messy "interest charges" that quickly accrue when we continue to allow once-manageable problems to fester.

Note that I'm NOT making excuses for Justin. I'm not making excuses for his mother, either. And I'm certainly not making excuses for his father. But Justin is here now, he's not going anywhere. And, as P4P says, we might as well help them become productive members of society. It's true: some won't ever become productive. But most will.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:37 PM
 
536 posts, read 344,263 times
Reputation: 2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
What solutions do you have, vicky3vicky, to a store of limited resources combined with increasing people who need them when some people have already used the system for thirty years with no apparent success?

Could you justify, for example, his allotted money being freed up to help younger needy people or do they have to do with less while we keep spending money on him?
I will most likely need to answer this question in a number of posts as I am in the middle of a project. Also, I will take it upon myself to change the question to "what are you doing about it?"


I am a 60 year old, recently retired female. As a child I was tested and received an IQ score of "in the vicinity of 55." I was labeled moderately to severely mentally retarded [ if you do not know, mentally retarded is no longer a professional diagnosis] My parents and I all knew better because I was reading fluently at 4 years old. I was not intellectually disabled, however I was and am, developmentally disabled. I am Autistic. And proud of it.


I often hear about the "autism epidemic," but we have ALWAYS been here. A very small percentage of us became the Einsteins, Jobs, Gates, and Teslas of the world. And of course there is Temple Grandin, who inspired the question most "high functioning" Autistic people cringe at when they Iare asked. ['Do you like cow"s?"]


When I was young, the majority of people with my wiring were stuck in institutions.We were considered schizophrenic, or mentally retarded, or both. Those of us who avoided that fate were the "quiet creepy weirdos" who were taunted and got the crap beat out of us every day. [ the vast majority of us have also been sexually abused]


It is estimated that about 35% of the homeless in the U.S. are Autistic. Many of the others are mentally ill and/or veterans. I have no doubt that quite a few of them also self medicate with drugs and alcohol.


Before I retired, I regularly fed the homeless at the "triangle" in downtown Denver [ and NOT PBJ or bologna on cheap white bread] and brought them clothing, socks, toothbrushes, books, jackets, blankets and such] In the past couple of years I put together AutHaven, an annual Autistics retreat by and for Autistics. It is the ONLY one in the world all can afford]Everything is included in fees, from lodging, classes, entertainment, and spectacular "swag bags." Over 50% are on full scholarship. It was at AutHaven a year and a half ago, that we first started talking about putting together an intentional Autistic [ and "cousins," which would most likely include 'Justin"] community within an already existing community.
BRB

Last edited by vicky3vicky; 12-07-2015 at 08:40 PM.. Reason: forgot to finish a senence
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:15 PM
 
536 posts, read 344,263 times
Reputation: 2986
85% of what are termed 'high functioning" Autistics, are not working. In the community we are working on, our intention is to provide supports [ like the hundreds of supports that non disabled automatically receive on a daily basis] The purpose for building this community is multifold,,but I am aware that your concern is your hatred toward the poor, particularly those receiving financial assistance. That is one thing we are working on.


We will build businesses with the types of supports needed for Autistic people, teach entrepeneurship, partnerships,work with companies who WANT hi-tech Autistics, and provide avenues for artisans to sell their work, among other things. We will assist each other with praxis, and complement each other in our strengths and weaknesses. We will learn skills in the ways that we learn."High functioning" Autistics will be able to be caregivers for 'lower functioning" Autistics, thus being able to financially support themselves.


At this point we only have 2 homes and an offer we put in today for a HUD home.[ we just started taking physical action] We will have to be renting them out to neurotypicals for a few years until we have enough people moving here and buying homes to make these original houses into part of the community.


Apart from the community in Pueblo, I also support a $15 per hour minimum wage [ call me psychic, but I have a feeling you oppose this] I volunteer helping kids to read who have learning differences, etc.


Did I mention that I am on chemotherapy and do not have the energy I used to [ and chemo brain IS a thing] So, what are you doing for "Justin?"
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:41 AM
 
5,166 posts, read 2,994,994 times
Reputation: 17654
I take a couple of points off for making assumptions and treating some people rudely

Other than that, good job, Girl.
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Old 12-08-2015, 02:39 PM
 
536 posts, read 344,263 times
Reputation: 2986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
I take a couple of points off for making assumptions and treating some people rudely

Other than that, good job, Girl.
I am SO sorry. I was so upset by the 'snarkiness" of the OP, that when YOU asked what I think should be done, I thought that you were the OP when I responded. My intention was not to be rude to YOU.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:13 AM
 
3,700 posts, read 3,026,594 times
Reputation: 10007
The above posts reflect the overall nature of debating when the issue at hand evokes deeply held opinions of what we as a nation should be doing with regard to our most pressing social issues. The fact of a rise in the numbers of "Justin's" in our midst has given us all reason to pause and think about the whole of our social environment not to mention the state of things relative to our economic underpinnings that could be a contributor to the growing marginalization of so many people on the fringe of society.

The themes of personal responsibility are also in play here, and many are questioning the idea of being our brothers keeper to the extent that carrying that burden may be too much to expect of the collective citizenry. I know one thing for sure, and that is that some will come forward to provide shelter and direction to our Justin's, while others will insist upon looking past Justin in order to help those they deem to be more worthy of our concern.

For me, and my views, I've come to the conclusion that something may well be going on in the minds of those such as Justin that is beyond our capability to comprehend. I can also see why many are angry and perplexed by the actions of those they deem to be an irresponsible weight on our society, but, on closer scrutiny I'd bet money on the notion of organic deficiencies being the cause of behaviors that drive us to scratch our heads and wonder when these people will "get it together."

As a footnote: I'll add that seventy five percent of Americans say they believe in a particular theological edict that would compel them to aid those whom society has, for whatever reason, shunned, but the amount of patience required to do so is seemingly beyond the scope of a majority of those counted in that seventy five percent. Justin, and all the Justin's, are now a political football, and that's a sad realization.
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Old 12-10-2015, 05:18 AM
 
8,093 posts, read 4,448,863 times
Reputation: 8716
WHY SHOULD WE DO ANYTHING, HE 43, time to grow up
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