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Old 04-14-2015, 08:01 PM
 
477 posts, read 505,972 times
Reputation: 1558

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
So, I have my views on this and I was interested in learning about your views as well.
A few ground rules if I may:

I'm interested in SCIENTIFIC reasons. NOT how you 'feel' about the topic...or what "god" says. I really want to know WHY you are for or against circumcision and would like to learn about the scientific reasons behind your position.


My view is that since it's not 'MY' body, I don't really have a right to modify it. I've read that circumcision 'may prevent' some types of cancer, but i'm not sure about the sources. I've also heard about cleanliness and the reduced chances of getting infection IF a newborn is circumcised.....but then again, i've heard the counter claim that it's more likely that the newborn will get infections from the circumcision itself!

What say you? Please provide sources to back your claim if possible.
The cancer thing is pretty much a non-issue - it's a type of cancer that there is like 2% of ever happening, and circumcision is supposed to reduce that by something like 10%.

However - note that that is not much of a difference (10% of 2% is pretty tiny) and there is reason to believe genetics may be partly responsible for that tiny difference, given that the majority of circumcised people are Moslem or Jewish, eg from a gene pool originating in the Middle East.

So there is actually NO evidence that the slight difference observed in some studies has anything to do with circumcision itself.

Circumcision is painful and unnecessary. They don't do it in most of the rest of the world except for religious reasons. There are only problems with "cleanliness" if you are squeamish about properly cleaning an infant, or if you have some weird religious agenda about little boys "touching" themselves.

I was an early refusnik - absolutely refused to have my son circumcised when he was born. You would not believe - or maybe you would - the contortions the nurses went through trying to get me to agree to have his little weenie whacked.

First, they brought up the cancer bugaboo -which, having done my research beforehand, I could counter with the actual journal articles showing there is no link between circumcision (or lack thereof) and cancer.

Then, in a shuddering voice, one of them tried to scare me with "But if you don't have him circumcised, he'll have to TOUCH himself "there" to get it clean!"

My response was that if she thought he would never "touch himself there", circumcised or not, she was pretty short-sighted - and it probably wasn't going to have anything to do with "cleaning". (She didn't think that was funny, btw).

The final salvo (that I can remember, it has been over 30 years now) was when one of them told me that it would make my son feel bad when he noticed he was different from his dad.

I couldn't help it, I started to laugh. "In the first place, he won't BE different from his dad, because his dad is from India, where they don't routinely circumcise (and btw there are 700 million people there so it's pretty obvious nobody's ****s are rotting off), and he isn't circumcised either. And in the second place - if my son and his father are comparing penises, there is a MUCH LARGER problem than whether or not they are both circumcised."

She didn't think that was funny, either.

Unless you are not cleaning your infant properly - and its easy enough to have that demonstrated at the hospital if you are uncertain how to go about this - an uncircumcised baby is not going to get an infection.

A circumcision is an INCISION - skin is cut and removed and is then susceptible to infiltration by various bacteria and detritus. This is WAY more likely to become infected - although still not terribly likely if proper cleaning is being done - which is going to be more complicated and painstaking than would be required in the absence of a circumcision.

There is just no good reason to automatically circumcise. It should be done only in the rare case of some physical problem that needs to be corrected - and a normally attached prepuce does not need to be corrected.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:24 PM
 
1,278 posts, read 1,239,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Dd's boyfriend has two brothers who had to be circumcised when they were older because of infections. Both of them circumcised their sons at birth to avoid them having to through it later.

If I had to make this choice I would choose to circumcise a son because circumcision reduces cervical cancer in the female partners of men and reduces the spread of STD's. Women shouldn't have to die over a flap of skin. If cutting off a flap of my skin could save dh's life, I'd do it.
Repost:

The practice of circumcision began during a period of pestilence, infection and disease, a time before bathing and showering, when people lived extremely unhygenic existences during ancient biblical times. It was also the case back then that one could not eat pork because of widespread bacterial trichinosis which can be fatal. One could not eat shellfish, lobster, etc either in fear of contracting illness. Obviously, it is safe to eat pork now and circumcision is an old ritualistic act that has carried over into modern times.

The one thing that people are NOT mentioning is that circumcision was mainly performed to desensitize males upon reaching puberty as means of society reducing oversexuality, and in many cases, widespread infidelity and rape. This was called "purification" in Judaism.

Anyone who thinks that circumcision is just simpily a trimming of skin is dead wrong. the Foreskin is the principal location of the erogenous sensation in the human male. REmoval will substantially reduce sensation. This is a medical fact.

Interestingly, the Romans were uncircumsized during their rule over Israel, where this practice was introduced. The Romans passed laws to protect the male's prepuce by declaring circumcision illegal.

Today, it's geographical. You will find more circumcised people up North, in cities like New York. There are more uncircumcised men in the South.

In terms of hygene, all people are different. There are gross circumcised men and uncircumsised. Hygene is your own personal thing, not to be generalized because of a foreskin.
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:30 PM
 
4,152 posts, read 4,392,866 times
Reputation: 10031
Quote:
Originally Posted by StatenIslandJake1995 View Post
I am not doubting it feels better to be uncut if you're a guy. More skin = more nerves, but the thing is you will have less of a chance of feeling anything because no girl will touch that

Has Hollywood porn made men feel they need to do so? This sounds like a cause for a PR campaign! I can just see the late night TV commercials and infomercials, a la ASPCA, etc...
"Women it's akin to body shaming! How dare you! Learn to love it with a cover as it was created. You don't want men's influence in mass media to have you feel a need for cosmetic surgery on your breasts, labia, et al do you? Well, embrace the knotty bulbous regions of your man (or one you don't know) and make him feel all aglow by showing him how to clean and maintain it properly."

Enquiring minds want to know:
Was Michelangelo's statue of David having a foreskin a conspiracy?
Was the rise of circumcision a conspiracy so Jews would not be easily identified when public bathing?
How do most men feel about this topic?


The two previous posts are accurate and should end this thread.
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,247,175 times
Reputation: 20827
I was born in 1949, in a well-equipped urban hospital, but I am not circumcised, supposedly due to complications at birth. Very few of the young men with whom I shared showers in Phys Ed or in dorms and a frat house in college ever called attention to my condition, and there were enough of us (I can recall a handful from high school, plus a few exchange students) who shared my status, that knowledge of the practice was common.

Interestingly enough, this sometimes wasn't the case with boys born a few years later when circumcision was just about universal. I had a "nephew" who though he might be "mutilated" (even though he already had been), but I finally had to explain the difference to him via a photo in a nudist publication. (Sorry, I don't do "live" modeling -- save in locker rooms).

Other medical issues in my late teens caused a urologist I dealt with to recommend the procedure, but I turned him down due to the requirements for admission, full anesthesia and a longer recovery period. Looking back, I now feel that I made the right choice.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 04-14-2015 at 10:34 PM..
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:50 PM
 
Location: U.S.A., Earth
5,511 posts, read 4,441,499 times
Reputation: 5764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winchupuata View Post
Haha, you seem really hung up on the girl thing, so hung up in fact that it sounds like you're making it up and that you don't really know what you're talking about.

I'm not American but live in the US now and I'm not circumcised, I've slept with plenty of girls here and do you know how many times that has been an issue? Zero. No girl here has ever not slept with me because of it, none, it's just a non issue completely. Only once a girl has mentioned it out of curiosity just because she had never seen an uncircumcised penis, and that was it.

And you would really cut your child because "kids will laugh at my son in the locker room"? Is that your reason? Even if you had used health reasons to justify it you'd still be wrong, but at least it would be because you were worried about your kids health, but because a couple of kids might say something in the locker room?


Yeah, it sounds like he has a bigger problem with other men's uncut penises than women.
This post was pretty much my thoughts.... it seems like the poster you replied to has some sort of crusade vs. non-circumcision. What if he's too short? Or if his dick ends up being too small? Or being a funny shape? He still gets laughed at anyways. And maybe if the argument for looking normal was something like a cleft lip. But a mole?

It feels like men NOT getting circumcised here in the US is as taboo and awful as women getting circumcised in Africa and those parts of the world.
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Corona del Mar, CA - Coronado, CA
4,477 posts, read 3,263,220 times
Reputation: 5609
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjasse View Post
It seems like a pointless and weird procedure with no real basis outside of religion. I don't understand why so many non jewish americans have been circumcised. However, I don't really care enough to look into the matter.
Have you not read the links from the American Academy of Pediatrics and Centers for Disease Control that say the medical benefits of circumcision outweigh any risks?

There is a real basis, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DubbleT View Post
Beg to differ as my son has no problem in the ladies department. He's an uncircumcised white young twentysomething of ordinary appearance.
And you know what he is doing sexually? You know girls reactions to his penis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ControlJohnsons View Post
I for one think it's a barbaric act.. We don't slice off the labia off women's parts.
There are no compelling reasons for female circumcision, there are valid medical reasons for male circumcision. I could argue it is barbaric to expose your son to future diseases and infections that can be greatly reduced by a simple procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18 View Post
I wouldn't make the choice to circumcise, even though I am.. Simply because I can pass the decision on to him. I can't glue it back on, so.. The only option to give him a choice is to leave him uncircumcised.
It is an incredible cop out and an abdication of parental responsibility. You are supposed to make decisions for your child for their welfare and benefit, especially if they are not competent to at the time to make a decision.

When your son is 4 and wants to go out in the cold and play without a coat on are you going to acquiesce to his wishes? When he doesn't want to go see the dentist, will it be okay because it is his body?

Sack up and make a decision based on a careful consideration of the facts, not a whiny "it's his decision".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ControlJohnsons View Post
The practice of circumcision began during a period of pestilence...blah blah blah
That whole post was the equivalent of placing your hands over your ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you la la la."

You didn't address a single thing in the post you were purportedly responding to. He discussed medical studies, you discussed everything but.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
My white sons thank me for not having them circumcised.
Seriously.... you've had your sons go "golly thanks Mom for not having us circumcised." Who talks to their mother about their penis? Who talks about their penis at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
Personally I think it is barbaric to do such things to a small infant. There is no reason to cut something off the body.
Why do people keep saying this when there clearly are benefits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
Really? It is the same as a woman keeping her labia clean. How about if we just cut off the labia than it would be much easier to keep things clean down there? Doesn't that sound silly?
You are willfully not paying attention to the scientific studies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soletaire View Post
Why dont we just completely skin everyone alive as infants?...I know it can be a real bear to have to shower everyday in hopes of preventing those pesky skin infections and skin cancers.
Why don't we have an adult conversation instead and leave the hysterics aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
No I wouldn't circumcise my potential future child. Just as I wouldn't cut off the tip of his nose or I wouldn't have my potential daughters clitoris hood removed. This whole debate is stupid. Your child might need an appendectomy, a hysterectomy, a tonsilectomy or a limb removed one day, should you remove them before they cause problems? I say this being a circumcised male. It's a ridiculous practice.
Mmmmm, I've seen so many reasonable posts from you in other topics that I'd encourage you to look at the AAP, CDC and other sources that have weighed in on the question in very recent years before deciding one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonGecko View Post
The cancer thing is pretty much a non-issue - it's a type of cancer that there is like 2% of ever happening, and circumcision is supposed to reduce that by something like 10%.

Circumcision is painful and unnecessary. They don't do it in most of the rest of the world except for religious reasons.

There is just no good reason to automatically circumcise. It should be done only in the rare case of some physical problem that needs to be corrected - and a normally attached prepuce does not need to be corrected.
I'll take the links for the numbers you are quoting. Penile cancer is a non-issue if you don't have it and it is only one of the diseases that circumcision shows benefits for.

Circumcision probably is painful, but I've never known anyone who was circumcised as an infant who can tell me what it was like since no one can remember.

Again with the rest of the world doesn't do it. So what, that is a fact of zero benefit. Most of the world doesn't bathe regularly either, should we stop bathing?

It is disingenuous to say "there is no good reason to automatically circumcise" because I have not seen anyone say it ought to be automatic or mandatory. I have seen people say there are benefits and that the people who say there are no good reasons are ignoring evidence to the contrary. They may not find the reasons compelling enough, but they can not say there are none.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:35 PM
 
2,755 posts, read 4,382,844 times
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I saw my first circumcision done in the hospital when I was in medical school.

It was brutal.

No anesthetic. No pain relief. The poor infant SCREAMED and screamed. Such a tiny baby and screaming like I had never heard before. It seemed like cruel torture. I actually started to cry and was horribly upset. The doctor doing it couldn't care less (and didn't notice me), was talking with her assistant the entire time about something unrelated .... ignored the baby and didn't try to sooth him at all.

All I could think of was.... does the mother have ANY idea what just happened to her baby? How he suffered?

I swore I would never circumcise my child.

But I never had children, so a non issue.

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I know an elderly man who just had a circumcision in his 70's because he was getting many urinary tract infections. He was having difficulty managing the hygiene, and this was contributing to infections. Do you know how they do a circumcision for an adult? General anesthesia or a combination of a local nerve block AND intravenous sedation.

They do all that for an adult to treat their pain, and yet they let a baby scream and scream and scream.... knowing a baby can't talk to tell anyone later to complain and report what torture just happened to them.

This is a personal choice for all parents, but make SURE you ask your doctors exactly what will be done for the pain and comfort of your baby. If you don't, then you should ask to be present for the procedure.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
11,642 posts, read 12,831,832 times
Reputation: 6360
I am uncircumcised and my partner loves the look of my uncut penis.

I can't imagine being circumsized. Rubbing your penis (masturbation) would seem more difficult because there is no additional maneuverable skin that would make it slide up and down, thus no intense pleasure (at least for me).
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Arizona
1,599 posts, read 1,796,218 times
Reputation: 4917
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfcambridge View Post
I saw my first circumcision done in the hospital when I was in medical school.

It was brutal.

No anesthetic. No pain relief. The poor infant SCREAMED and screamed. Such a tiny baby and screaming like I had never heard before. It seemed like cruel torture. I actually started to cry and was horribly upset. The doctor doing it couldn't care less (and didn't notice me), was talking with her assistant the entire time about something unrelated .... ignored the baby and didn't try to sooth him at all.

All I could think of was.... does the mother have ANY idea what just happened to her baby? How he suffered?

I swore I would never circumcise my child.

But I never had children, so a non issue.

On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, I know an elderly man who just had a circumcision in his 70's because he was getting many urinary tract infections. He was having difficulty managing the hygiene, and this was contributing to infections. Do you know how they do a circumcision for an adult? General anesthesia or a combination of a local nerve block AND intravenous sedation.

They do all that for an adult to treat their pain, and yet they let a baby scream and scream and scream.... knowing a baby can't talk to tell anyone later to complain and report what torture just happened to them.

This is a personal choice for all parents, but make SURE you ask your doctors exactly what will be done for the pain and comfort of your baby. If you don't, then you should ask to be present for the procedure.
I know they used a local anesthetic on my boys, because I asked and everything was explained to me. The one thing that made me hesitate about having my boys circ'ed was pain. Once I learned the area would be numbed, I felt fully comfortable with moving forward.
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Old 04-15-2015, 12:06 AM
 
2,755 posts, read 4,382,844 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennies4Penny View Post
I know they used a local anesthetic on my boys, because I asked and everything was explained to me. The one thing that made me hesitate about having my boys circ'ed was pain. Once I learned the area would be numbed, I felt fully comfortable with moving forward.

If the doctor doesn't feel comfortable letting you be present for the procedure, it is because they are not using enough pain relief and the baby is screaming.

Think about what I told you they do for older people.... a nerve block AND intravenous sedation. If they have to do all that for sufficient pain relief for an adult, do you think a little EMLA cream or injecting a little lidocaine under the skin will be enough? Unfortunately, it isn't. They also send adults home with a prescription for Vicodin after the procedure.

I haven't read the thread if other people witness circumcisions these days in hospitals and can report on what is done.
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