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Old 06-14-2016, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,913 posts, read 5,205,515 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
It was up to representatives of the other 5.5 million to lobby and self-advocate. The Jews did not do this before the Shoah. That was one of the meanings of "never again."

But one thing. Most the other survivor groups were welcome somewhere. The Jews, not so much.
It wAs/is up to everyone. To ignore it is acting like the so jets didn't lose 20 million or so in the war. Fully 40% of the deaths in the entire war were shouldered by the soviets. 4 out of 10. Is it up to them and them only to promote the losses? I think not.

For the record, roughly 55 million were killed worldwide. I think it best we remember all of them. Permanently. And that includes the 6 million Jews and 5.5 million non-Jews who were victims of the holocaust. How one group who endured so much neglects to ever mention the 5.5 million who died equally mystifies me. Imagine if it were the reverse and all one heard about were those 5.5 million?

You see my point. Acknowledge them. Remember them and yes, never forget them...either?
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Old 06-14-2016, 03:05 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,509 posts, read 16,599,025 times
Reputation: 29686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
It wAs/is up to everyone. To ignore it is acting like the so jets didn't lose 20 million or so in the war. Fully 40% of the deaths in the entire war were shouldered by the soviets. 4 out of 10. Is it up to them and them only to promote the losses? I think not.

For the record, roughly 55 million were killed worldwide. I think it best we remember all of them. Permanently. And that includes the 6 million Jews and 5.5 million non-Jews who were victims of the holocaust. How one group who endured so much neglects to ever mention the 5.5 million who died equally mystifies me. Imagine if it were the reverse and all one heard about were those 5.5 million?

You see my point. Acknowledge them. Remember them and yes, never forget them...either?
The Jews effectively were led like lambs to the slaughter in WW II. Hopefully that will be the last time we don't stand up for our own interests.
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Old 06-14-2016, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,851 posts, read 2,281,766 times
Reputation: 4545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet View Post
It wAs/is up to everyone. To ignore it is acting like the so jets didn't lose 20 million or so in the war. Fully 40% of the deaths in the entire war were shouldered by the soviets. 4 out of 10. Is it up to them and them only to promote the losses? I think not.

For the record, roughly 55 million were killed worldwide. I think it best we remember all of them. Permanently. And that includes the 6 million Jews and 5.5 million non-Jews who were victims of the holocaust. How one group who endured so much neglects to ever mention the 5.5 million who died equally mystifies me. Imagine if it were the reverse and all one heard about were those 5.5 million?

You see my point. Acknowledge them. Remember them and yes, never forget them...either?
Of course all the killed must be remembered.

And the Holocaust must be remembered.

One does not exclude another.

When 63% of the entire pre-war population of one ethnic / religious group is exterminated in just 5 years, in the heart of what was considered to be the cradle of humanity and civilization, with most countries looking the other way, you can't just let this quietly go away into obscurity.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:23 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,607 posts, read 4,824,600 times
Reputation: 3591
1) Many of the Jewish victims weren't killed in camps. They often died during transport or were executed when villages were 'visited.'
2) I doubt that any countries were eager to accept Gypsy refugees from Nazi-controlled lands. As far as I know, there's never been much international sympathy toward those that didn't survive.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Bretagne, FRANCE
192 posts, read 268,756 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
It was up to representatives of the other 5.5 million to lobby and self-advocate. The Jews did not do this before the Shoah. That was one of the meanings of "never again."

But one thing. Most the other survivor groups were welcome somewhere. The Jews, not so much.
Which countries welcomed the Gypsies?

Actually, in answer to your comment....
-- Portugal accepted Jews on transit visas (though Salazar didn't like it).
-- Spain welcomed Jews, especially the Sephardim.
-- Switzerland took in Jews.
-- Sweden took in the entire population of Danish Jews.
-- China, the Philippines, and Japan accepted Jews, as did Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Bolivia, and the Dominican Republic.
-- The UK accepted over 10,000 Jewish refugee children, the Kindertransport, most of whom were taken in by British gentile families.

Of course what these countries could do wasn't enough. However, it's not truthful to say that no country was willing to take in the Jews.

-- When frightened Jews from Germany, Austria, and Eastern Europe poured across the border into France, the French authorities ignored the legal restrictions on immigration in place at the time and let them through. The tragedy was that once France was occupied, France was unable to protect these foreign Jews. (Vichy, which was collaborative, was another story, a far worse one.)

French Jews could get forged papers and disappear into the general population, which many did, whilst foreign Jews, no matter how urbane and cultured, stood out as foreigners.

I saw in a documentary that when the Germans met with French officials one of their 'requests' was that the French start rounding up Jews. The French refused. The docu described the Germans as cordially responding to the French officials that if the French didn't want to round up the Jews, they (the Germans) would round up the Jews themselves. Frightened for the French Jews, the French agreed to round them up. The French officials did a pretty bad job of rounding up French Jews because 76% of French Jews survived the war. (This isn't to ignore the tragedy of the murder of the other 24%.)

Read : The Holocaust, the French, and the Jews. by Susan Zuccotti
https://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Fre...ct_top?ie=UTF8

Quote:
From Publishers Weekly

Despite the French Vichy regime's complicity in the roundup and deportation of Jews to Nazi death camps, roughly three-fourths of France's Jews, an estimated 250,000 people, survived. Zuccotti, author of the National Jewish Book Award-winner Italians and the Holocaust , attributes their survival partly to "benign neglect"--the vast majority of French men and women kept silent, allowing Jews to remain in hiding or to cross borders. Many Jews in France with fake papers and ration cards survived by living quietly and taking odd jobs, abetted, according to Zuccotti, by the passive goodwill of hundreds of thousands of French men and women who simply went about their own business. Using a wealth of archival documents, the author chronicles the clandestine networks of Jewish rescue organizations, the heroic efforts of armed Jewish resistance groups and the assistance provided by non-Jews such as the 3000 residents of Le Chambon who hid some 5000 Jews in their homes. She also charts the treachery of Vichy politicians and of countless French collaborators who joined fascist leagues to hunt down resistants and Jews. European history professor at Barnard and Columbia, Zuccotti forces us to rethink the French response to the Holocaust in this challenging book.
Something else to keep in mind : In all occupied countries, the biggest danger was from the collaborators, local people who, for their own gain, sold out their neighbours who were in the Resistance, and anyone who was assisting or hiding Jews, Slavs, Communists, anti-Nazi intellectuals, and downed Allied fliers. It was a Dutch collaborator who turned in Miep Gies and the Jews she had been hiding, which included the Frank family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Wow. that's all I can say.

What happened to the 3 million or so Jews that inhabited Poland, for example? And does overwork, death from hunger, cold, heat, or "medical experiments" count?
Of course it does.

Last edited by Jeo123; 06-16-2016 at 02:05 PM.. Reason: Merged
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:53 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,509 posts, read 16,599,025 times
Reputation: 29686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliette La Bretonne View Post
Something else to keep in mind : In all occupied countries, the biggest danger was from the collaborators, local people who, for their own gain, sold out their neighbours who were in the Resistance, and anyone who was assisting or hiding Jews, Slavs, Communists, anti-Nazi intellectuals, and downed Allied fliers. It was a Dutch collaborator who turned in Miep Gies and the Jews she had been hiding, which included the Frank family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliette La Bretonne View Post
Of course it does.
I'm glad I read your posts on an empty stomach. The factis that the countries that could do something effectual did not. And the French often did turn Jews in. In general the world's history of hatred of Jews, stretching back several millennia, was on full display. There were scattered bright spots to be sure as you pointed out. But not enough. Totally not enough.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:54 PM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
6,607 posts, read 4,824,600 times
Reputation: 3591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juliette La Bretonne View Post
Which countries welcomed the Gypsies?

Actually, in answer to your comment....
-- Portugal accepted Jews on transit visas (though Salazar didn't like it).
-- Spain welcomed Jews, especially the Sephardim.
-- Switzerland took in Jews.
-- Sweden took in the entire population of Danish Jews.
-- China, the Philippines, and Japan accepted Jews, as did Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Bolivia, and the Dominican Republic.
-- The UK accepted over 10,000 Jewish refugee children, the Kindertransport, most of whom were taken in by British gentile families.

Of course what these countries could do wasn't enough. However, it's not truthful to say that no country was willing to take in the Jews.

-- When frightened Jews from Germany, Austria, and Eastern Europe poured across the border into France, the French authorities ignored the legal restrictions on immigration in place at the time and let them through. The tragedy was that once France was occupied, France was unable to protect these foreign Jews. (Vichy, which was collaborative, was another story, a far worse one.)

French Jews could get forged papers and disappear into the general population, which many did, whilst foreign Jews, no matter how urbane and cultured, stood out as foreigners.

I saw in a documentary that when the Germans met with French officials one of their 'requests' was that the French start rounding up Jews. The French refused. The docu described the Germans as cordially responding to the French officials that if the French didn't want to round up the Jews, they (the Germans) would round up the Jews themselves. Frightened for the French Jews, the French agreed to round them up. The French officials did a pretty bad job of rounding up French Jews because 76% of French Jews survived the war. (This isn't to ignore the tragedy of the murder of the other 24%.)

Read : The Holocaust, the French, and the Jews. by Susan Zuccotti
https://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Fre...ct_top?ie=UTF8

Something else to keep in mind : In all occupied countries, the biggest danger was from the collaborators, local people who, for their own gain, sold out their neighbours who were in the Resistance, and anyone who was assisting or hiding Jews, Slavs, Communists, anti-Nazi intellectuals, and downed Allied fliers. It was a Dutch collaborator who turned in Miep Gies and the Jews she had been hiding, which included the Frank family.

I wonder if the idea that Jews' suffering far outweighed the suffering of other groups is mostly an American thing. Because there's a large influential American Jewish population and many people over here have limited knowledge of Europe. For example, I've never met any Gypsies and knew almost nothing about other countries accepting Jewish refugees during the war. Just from a logistical standpoint (distance and naval warfare), it was hard to get Jews across the ocean in WWII.
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Old 06-16-2016, 05:56 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,483,022 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
I wonder if the idea that Jews' suffering far outweighed the suffering of other groups is mostly an American thing. Because there's a large influential American Jewish population and many people over here have limited knowledge of Europe. For example, I've never met any Gypsies and knew almost nothing about other countries accepting Jewish refugees during the war. Just from a logistical standpoint (distance and naval warfare), it was hard to get Jews across the ocean in WWII.
It isn't just an American thing. Asking legitimate questions about "THE Holocaust" in Europe will get you thrown in jail. But certainly the Jewish influence(that is, stranglehold) on American mass media has a lot to do with it. And as link the provided by richrf points out, what better way to divert attention from the Jews own participation in genocide(Russian Revolution, Palestine) than to constantly promote themselves as history's foremost victims?
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:38 PM
bg7
 
7,694 posts, read 10,507,591 times
Reputation: 15298
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
It isn't just an American thing. Asking legitimate questions about "THE Holocaust" in Europe will get you thrown in jail. But certainly the Jewish influence(that is, stranglehold) on American mass media has a lot to do with it. And as link the provided by richrf points out, what better way to divert attention from the Jews own participation in genocide(Russian Revolution, Palestine) than to constantly promote themselves as history's foremost victims?
No doubt you get pissed as well when Americans use the term "The Revolutionary War", like that's the only revolutionary war in history - or even the first right? Or when blacks use the term slavery to only refer to African-American slavery in the US despite the prior, contemporary and present existence of slavery all over the world.


Your agenda is as obvious as your question is puerile.
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Old 06-16-2016, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Chicago
5,559 posts, read 4,603,663 times
Reputation: 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
No doubt you get pissed as well when Americans use the term "The Revolutionary War", like that's the only revolutionary war in history - or even the first right? Or when blacks use the term slavery to only refer to African-American slavery in the US despite the prior, contemporary and present existence of slavery all over the world.


Your agenda is as obvious as your question is puerile.
The Revolutionary War refers to the Totality of the War, not some slice of it.There is no such thing as The Slavery that refers to slavery of African Americans pre-Civil War. And there is no World War II that refers to some slice of that war. However, there is a peculiar slicing and dicing of the genocide that the Nazi perpetrated on 35 million people, a trademarking of one particular slice that is capitalized and used for perpetual money making enterprises. Money that does not go to survivors but somehow ends up in the coffers of some ingenious marketing types. Now, who has the agenda?

Never again??? It's happening once again in many parts of the world. Hmmm ... maybe those people just don't deserve our attention.
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