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Old 06-19-2016, 06:10 AM
 
3,431 posts, read 2,693,977 times
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"Lebensraum" was closely linked to empire building. That's what all the major European powers were into during the 19C and earlier, and that's what Hitler was interested in doing... building a German empire. It started with seizing more land in Europe. Any area with a tiny minority of people with germanic ancestry made a territory covetable for Hitler (Hungary, parts of Ukraine, Croatia, etc.)... after dodgy goal was fulfilled, they kept marching and taking over territory until they were up into Stalingrad, down in Greece, down into Africa, and so on. It was all about Empire building. Just as Mussolini tried to expand his territory into the Horn of Africa.

And don't get sidetracked with the anger about Israel. The U.S. and Canada are settler societies, where people of Euro descent and many other origins are squatting on territory stolen from indigenous people who are left with some scattered measly reserves (reservations in Canada). The Americans/Canadians aren't giving up their "stolen" lands anytime soon. The BDS crowd make me laugh with their single-minded hypocrisy.
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Old 06-19-2016, 06:42 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,045,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I dislike having to repeat myself. But the deliberate "destruction" of the "Palestinian" people is a canard. Largely it was the result of two non-deliberate factors: 1) what inevitably happens when a primitive culture meets an advanced one; and 2) the failure to accept any peace offering. In fact many of the Palestinians came in to work at enterprises created by the Zionist settlers They rejected political and economic offerings made to secure a peaceful resolution of their problems. Pre-independence articles in newspapers read the same way as modern ones. Constant formulas, constant rejections, and constant violence.
I suspected that if we continued to scratch the surface, your true colors would be revealed. Jews run millions of Palestinians from their homeland and massacre thousands of them. But it's their fault because they're just a "primitive people" and wouldn't accept a peace offering afterward.

And isn't it the same reason you feel comfortable with the Roma being ignored as "Holocaust" victims? Because they're just "primitive people"?

You believe "THE Holocaust" is a fair designation because you believe Jews are superior, and the mass killing of Jews is more tragic than that of Armenians, Ukranians, Tutsis, etc. Isn't that so?
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Old 06-19-2016, 06:52 AM
 
Location: New York Area
13,133 posts, read 5,042,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf View Post
Lebensraum
Your constant comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany are beyond sickening. I ignored it for a while since I thought you were just looking for attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
"Lebensraum" was closely linked to empire building. That's what all the major European powers were into during the 19C and earlier, and that's what Hitler was interested in doing... building a German empire. It started with seizing more land in Europe. Any area with a tiny minority of people with germanic ancestry made a territory covetable for Hitler (Hungary, parts of Ukraine, Croatia, etc.)... after dodgy goal was fulfilled, they kept marching and taking over territory until they were up into Stalingrad, down in Greece, down into Africa, and so on. It was all about Empire building. Just as Mussolini tried to expand his territory into the Horn of Africa.
100% agreed. The EU isn't much different. It's cooperative empire building by Europe's new perpetual rulers, the shifting and largely similar coalitions that run the component countries. The EU further diminishes the risk that anyone will rock the boat; except perhaps the British people on Thursday with a positive "leave" vote in the Brexit referendum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
And don't get sidetracked with the anger about Israel. The U.S. and Canada are settler societies, where people of Euro descent and many other origins are squatting on territory stolen from indigenous people who are left with some scattered measly reserves (reservations in Canada). The Americans/Canadians aren't giving up their "stolen" lands anytime soon. The BDS crowd make me laugh with their single-minded hypocrisy.
Primitive societies always fare poorly at the hands of more advanced ones. And in the case of Canada's FN's and the U.S.'s Native Americans smallpox and liquor did the damage. Only minor amounts of land were lost to battles.
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Old 06-19-2016, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,559 posts, read 3,430,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Primitive societies always fare poorly at the hands of more advanced ones. And in the case of Canada's FN's and the U.S.'s Native Americans smallpox and liquor did the damage. Only minor amounts of land were lost to battles.
There we are. Manifest Destiny in action. Or should we just call it Lebensraum? Any other examples you might have to provide us with?
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Old 06-19-2016, 06:57 AM
 
Location: New York Area
13,133 posts, read 5,042,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf View Post
There we are. Manifest Destiny in action. Or should we just call it Lebensraum? Any other examples you might have to provide us with?
Obviously you don't take the trouble to read detailed responses I provide. Just Nazi dog-whistles.
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Old 06-19-2016, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago
5,559 posts, read 3,430,479 times
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Obviously you don't take the trouble to read detailed responses I provide. Just Nazi dog-whistles.
Just wondering if you were up with current events and might be able to point out other primaries societies that may be fairing poorly against some more advanced societies in the name of God Given Desitinies. It seems to be a running theme throughout history. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Old 06-19-2016, 11:30 AM
 
Location: all over the place (figuratively)
2,569 posts, read 2,074,554 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf View Post
The Nazis early on had already begun resettling Germans into occupied territories.

Generalplan Ost was the name for massive extermination within Eastern Europe and Lebensraum. Many ethic groups were targeted and on their way to extinction. However, Russia's population prohibited a quick annihilation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
It's too bad that isn't taught in some American classrooms. I certainly wasn't informed about it. I do partially attribute that to emphasis on teaching about The Holocaust. Of course another reason is that killing Jews, the disabled, gays, and maybe some others was a higher priority to the Nazis, who didn't get around to wiping out millions of ordinary civilians in newly conquered lands.
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Old 06-19-2016, 12:58 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,133 posts, read 5,042,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richrf View Post
Just wondering if you were up with current events and might be able to point out other primaries societies that may be fairing poorly against some more advanced societies in the name of God Given Desitinies. It seems to be a running theme throughout history. Thanks for pointing it out.
"Other primaries societies"? I am trying to make some coherent sense of this post. But a few examples of what I think you are saying:
  1. British v. Australian Aborigines
  2. Spanish settlers in Caribbean v. Arawak and Taino (I guess the Hispanics reached favor at some point when they started failing)
  3. Aztecs v. predecessor peoples
  4. Coptic Christians in Egypt v. pagan pyramid builders;
  5. Mayans v. predecessor peoples
  6. Incas v. predecessor peoples
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodheathen View Post
It's too bad that isn't taught in some American classrooms. I certainly wasn't informed about it. I do partially attribute that to emphasis on teaching about The Holocaust. Of course another reason is that killing Jews, the disabled, gays, and maybe some others was a higher priority to the Nazis, who didn't get around to wiping out millions of ordinary civilians in newly conquered lands.
Many people took it on the chin. The Jews, though, by far the worst.
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Old 06-20-2016, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 3,966,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Of course all the killed must be remembered.

And the Holocaust must be remembered.

One does not exclude another.

When 63% of the entire pre-war population of one ethnic / religious group is exterminated in just 5 years, in the heart of what was considered to be the cradle of humanity and civilization, with most countries looking the other way, you can't just let this quietly go away into obscurity.
You are marginalizing them. Again. That may/may be 63% of the EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWS but, not 63% worldwide. Your statement is mis-leading. Speak the facts and only the facts. Still, it does not diminish the OTHER 5.5 million who died just as horrifically with no qualifying statements. Until that sector recognizes the other, its hard to be "special"?

No one diminishes what happened to the Jews. But, no one should diminish what happened to the OTHER 5.5 million and frankly, they should ALL be mentioned in any one sentence regarding the Holocaust. Period.

Now, once and for all, without singling out one or the other, SAY IT....5.5 million NON-JEWS died JUST as horrifically as the 6.0 million jews did in the EXACT same fashion with the EXACT same malice in Hitler's heart...do that and you unite the survivors.

ALL of them.

Don't, and you start to divide them. Again.
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