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Old 07-19-2015, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
it is "the" Holocaust because so many of us lost families and loved ones in it, so the memories are fresh, personal, and real. It is "the" Holocaust because the unthinkable happened in a so-called highly civilized modern educated nation (Germany). It is "the" Holocaust because it happened in our time and we are still asking ourselves how did we ever let it get that far, how could so many people go along with it.
But doesn't this also hold true for the people that lost loved ones in The Killing Fields of Cambodia, Rwanda, and other atrocities.
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Old 07-19-2015, 11:50 AM
 
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Why do we call it "The Depression"?

The Holocaust was the first major one in modern times and, although I'm no historian, I expect it was unique in terms of the methodical way that the government turned on an unprecedently high number of its own people, that it covered multiple countries, and that it was part of a war that involved most of the world.
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Old 07-19-2015, 07:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eok View Post
Two issues are conflated here. First, why the "Holocaust" is the name of a particular genocide, and not the names of others. Second, why the Holocaust has museums etc., more than other genocides do. Only by separating those two issues can they be explained and understood.

Who provided the money for the Holocaust museum, and why didn't the same benefactor provide money for other genocide museums?
The word holocaust is used interchangeably with the word genocide. It's commonly used in reference to the African holocausts, Armenian holocaust, etc. The question remains, why is one called THE Holocaust?

The land on which the museum sits was donated by the federal government, i.e. paid for by American taxpayers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok View Post
There were various revolts in the USA which were mostly called such things as rebellions, riots, etc. Why were they not each called the "Revolutionary War" or the "Civil War"?

By considering those questions, the issues can be clarified enough to start to make sense.
These questions don't help us clarify the issue at all. Rebellions and riots were just that, and so named. There was no declaration of war in those cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok View Post
One question about any particular genocide, that can help clarify the nature of that genocide, is "by what means or weapons did they kill the children?" Because, when killing adults, the issue is often confused by the fact that it's usually some kind of war. But when they kill everyone, with the intent of destroying a whole ethnic group, and leaving none alive at all, then it's more than a war. Asking how they killed the children clarifies what kind of genocide it was. Were the children incidental or were they directly killed with the intent of leaving no members of that ethnic group alive?

With the Nazis, it was very clear that they intended to completely destroy the entire Jewish ethnic group. Throwing children into fires, gassing them, etc., made that very clear. If they had only attacked adults, and the children had been incidental, there might be some question if that was their main intent. But deliberately killing children en masse clarifies the intent, making it clear the motive was to destroy the entire ethnic group, and not just as a war against them.

When Saddam gassed Kurds, did he intend to destroy all Kurds, the whole ethnic group? Or did he only intend to destroy their capability of fighting back, by killing as many of them as possible, as efficiently as possible?

The Germans who killed the Jews wanted all Jews gone forever. It was important to them that none survive, because they considered that their goal, which would not be accomplished by leaving some of them alive to start over.
THE Holocaust was certainly not unique in that it included ethnic cleansing or the mass murder of children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok View Post
As for Holocaust museums, are there really more of those than museums about what happened to native Americans? And in all the thousands of years of native Americans occupying America, how many genocides were there between different ethnic groups of them?

In Africa, and possibly since the beginning of the human race, genocides might have been considered common, and it might have never occurred to anyone to build museums about them. The Holocaust museum might be unique by being first. The first time it ever occurred to anyone to build a museum about a genocide.
I know of museums dedicated to Native Indian heritage, but none designed to memorialize the holocaust they suffered. One might exist, but I'm not aware of it.
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Old 07-19-2015, 08:09 PM
 
1,562 posts, read 996,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texan2yankee View Post
Jews do not need to compete in a morbid contest as to who has suffered the most in history. It is important, however, to understand why the Holocaust is a unique part of human history.

The "Final Solution" was designed to exterminate every single Jewish man, woman and child. The only Jews who would have conceivably survived had Hitler been victorious were those who somehow escaped discovery by the Nazis.

Jewish birth or mere evidence of "Jewish blood" was sufficient to warrant the punishment of death. With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the "crime" of existing.

The extermination of the Jews had no political or economic justification. It was not a means to any end; it was an end in itself. The killing of Jews was not considered just a part of the war effort, but equal to it; thus, resources that could have been used in the war were diverted instead to the program of extermination.

The people who carried out the "Final Solution" were primarily average citizens.

Other examples of mass murder exist in human history, but none of those other catastrophes contain more than one of the characteristics described above.
If you're going to cut and paste material from another source, it's disingenuous not to include a link or at least a citation. If you have any original thoughts on the matter, I'm willing to listen.
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Old 07-20-2015, 12:22 AM
 
2,805 posts, read 1,752,403 times
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What is your motive behind an attempt to debate the word Holocaust is it to degrade the significance of the event? Are you an Holocaust denier? Do you wish that people stop using that word? I really don't think any other genocide in the 20th century can compare to the Holocaust in scope and size it was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century by far. You mention others like Stalin Purge, Pol Pot those took place inside their own country's. The holocaust took place in many country's, and part of invasion plans to rule Europe.
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Old 07-20-2015, 05:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
What is your motive behind an attempt to debate the word Holocaust is it to degrade the significance of the event? Are you an Holocaust denier? Do you wish that people stop using that word? I really don't think any other genocide in the 20th century can compare to the Holocaust in scope and size it was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century by far. You mention others like Stalin Purge, Pol Pot those took place inside their own country's. The holocaust took place in many country's, and part of invasion plans to rule Europe.
You've curiously avoided my earlier question. No, I'm not a holocaust denier, nor do I understand why anyone who raises a reasonable question about "THE Holocaust" is invariably labeled as such. Nonetheless, I could ask you the same: Why is it that you wish to refer to one particular holocaust as "THE Holocaust"? Do you deny that there have been many others? Nothing you've mentioned explains how this was a greater tragedy than the others. I think a number of Ukrainians, Africans, American Indians, etc. would take reasonable exception to that assertion.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,104 posts, read 3,814,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
As much as I appreciate your dissertation on the word "the", you seem ill-prepared to deliver one. THE Civil War and THE Great Depression are in fact referred to as such because they are unique. The US has had but one civil war(another misnomer, but that's a different thread), and one depression of that magnitude, hence the designation of THE.

Without context, what if I were to make reference to THE War? Surely you would ask, "which one"? Should it not be the same with THE Holocaust? It's one of many.
Within this context, THE Holocaust was the only one that the US was involved with, it resulted in the formation of an entire Nation for the Jews. Your thinly veiled attack on Jews here is pathetic.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Austin
10,110 posts, read 5,639,847 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
If you're going to cut and paste material from another source, it's disingenuous not to include a link or at least a citation. If you have any original thoughts on the matter, I'm willing to listen.
You're right. I forgot the link. Very sorry, as I always post a link for others to refer to. There is other good information at this referenced site for those who want to learn more. It should have been included and the Jewish philosopher Emil Fackenheim credited for the information in my previous post.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...st_unique.html


Whether people listen or not is not in my control. Some people are intractable bigots and no amount of information will change their hate filled heads.

Last edited by texan2yankee; 07-20-2015 at 06:29 AM..
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:38 AM
 
Location: NC Piedmont
3,553 posts, read 2,358,629 times
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Yet another semantic debate. Why not got to an NFL forum and ask "Why is that one play The Catch? There are lots of catches in every game and even if we just consider playoff games won in the closing seconds by a completed pass there are a few." Because that is what it became known as shortly after the event and it has stuck. Picking at the labels events were given years after they have become the cultural norm is just intellectual flatulence IMO.
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Old 07-20-2015, 06:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth View Post
Within this context, THE Holocaust was the only one that the US was involved with, it resulted in the formation of an entire Nation for the Jews. Your thinly veiled attack on Jews here is pathetic.
Within what context? The US had no involvement in virtually wiping out the American Indian and their entire culture? Moreover, unlike other holocausts, our involvement in "THE Holocaust" has been largely viewed historically as a virtuous one. I'm making no attacks upon anyone; it is your thinly-veiled attempt(and others) to paint me as anti-semitic that is truly pathetic. Is it really so difficult to have an intellectually honest conversation without resorting to this?
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