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Old 07-23-2015, 01:45 PM
 
4,540 posts, read 1,716,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
I don't know where you're from, but that's unusual. If you were to mention "The Civil War" to most people outside of the US, they would not likely assume you're referring to the American war for southern independence.

Nor can I imagine that people were any less shocked by the atrocities that took place during the Armenian holocaust or any others.

I am from Canada and I would guess that most people here would think of the American Civil War is some one mentioned The Civil War. Why do you think that people living in countries that did not have their own civil war would not think of the US one when it is mentioned as The Civil War? I have not heard about teh American War for southern independence, was that before or after the War of Northern Aggression?

We see movies and read books about it as American culture is a dominating one. I do not know what Australians would think if they heard The Civil War but many would think USA I bet.

The Second World War lasted almost 6 years, less for Americans. For that period of time people lived on rations, had family members fighting and watched news reels on a regular basis and followed the war on the radio. The liberations of the camps was much more immediate and on people's mind than the Armenian genocide, people saw the news reels in the theatres on a weekly basis. Visuals of something that happened almost at real time, at least for that time period, have much more effect on a person's emotion that reading about some event months or even years later. During the Rwanda massacre people in North America basically ignored the situaiton before, during and after it and felt removed from it.

You asked a question but seem to disagree with everyone's explaination. Sounds like you personally do not like it being called The Halocaust.
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Old 07-23-2015, 01:57 PM
 
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Well, the point that there have been more than a few genocides is a very, very valid one. It's the worst one in living memory and one of the best documented, so I can see why people call the Nazi slaughter THE Holocaust.

But already the information slippage is really alarming. People think that the 6 million Jews killed were Hitler's only targets, for instance, forgetting that 11 million died in the camps aside from the formally-declared war itself, the Resistance and so forth.

And the lack of awareness of other genocides really worries me. What about the Armenians during the Great War? What about Rwanda? The Congo? Bosnia? Uganda? What about every single Native American tribe, including those living north and south of the US border? Boko Haram right this minute in various African outposts? Genghis Khan's men killed a million people in ONE WEEK -- let's see Hitler top that. Is anyone on this site aware that every single native Tasmanian is dead now? Has anyone read the Book of Genesis, which is pretty much a history of and guide to low-tech genocide? What about the Russian policy of making birth control harder to get for white women so as to minimize the nonwhite population there?
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:02 PM
 
1,562 posts, read 987,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I don't think it's a matter of significance, but maybe familiarity in a particular time period. Referring to one war as "THE War" would be very confusing because there have been many wars within the lifetime of most people alive today.* But for most people, the only holocaust they know anything about is the Nazi Holocaust.

You don't hear people say "the genocide" because without another descriptor it's unclear whether they're talking about the Armenian genocide, the Bosnian genocide or the Rwandan genocide.


*Although when I was a kid, everyone in my parents' generation referred to WWII as "the war." If they were talking about the Korean or Vietnam wars, they used those descriptors.
Precisely my point! And isn't that a problem? Why should the Nazi holocaust be elevated to "THE Holocaust"? Why is it we should remember these victims to the exclusion of all of the others? Why are school children not taught all about the suffering of the Armenians, etc.? We stopped calling those events holocausts. I guess they're just mere genocides now.
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:22 PM
 
1,562 posts, read 987,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
I am from Canada and I would guess that most people here would think of the American Civil War is some one mentioned The Civil War. Why do you think that people living in countries that did not have their own civil war would not think of the US one when it is mentioned as The Civil War? I have not heard about teh American War for southern independence, was that before or after the War of Northern Aggression?

We see movies and read books about it as American culture is a dominating one. I do not know what Australians would think if they heard The Civil War but many would think USA I bet.

The Second World War lasted almost 6 years, less for Americans. For that period of time people lived on rations, had family members fighting and watched news reels on a regular basis and followed the war on the radio. The liberations of the camps was much more immediate and on people's mind than the Armenian genocide, people saw the news reels in the theatres on a weekly basis. Visuals of something that happened almost at real time, at least for that time period, have much more effect on a person's emotion that reading about some event months or even years later. During the Rwanda massacre people in North America basically ignored the situaiton before, during and after it and felt removed from it.

You asked a question but seem to disagree with everyone's explaination. Sounds like you personally do not like it being called The Halocaust.
Well yeah, in countries where American culture is dominant and they've not had a civil war(not many), they might understand it that way.
And yes, I've disagreed with some explanations. No one has yet offered a valid reason as to why we should call it "THE Holocaust".
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:47 PM
 
4,540 posts, read 1,716,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
Well yeah, in countries where American culture is dominant and they've not had a civil war(not many), they might understand it that way.
And yes, I've disagreed with some explanations. No one has yet offered a valid reason as to why we should call it "THE Holocaust".

What would you consider a valid explaination?
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Old 07-23-2015, 03:00 PM
 
14,459 posts, read 15,221,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
Precisely my point! And isn't that a problem? Why should the Nazi holocaust be elevated to "THE Holocaust"? Why is it we should remember these victims to the exclusion of all of the others? Why are school children not taught all about the suffering of the Armenians, etc.? We stopped calling those events holocausts. I guess they're just mere genocides now.
I don't see it as a problem because I don't think the Nazi holocaust has been elevated to "THE Holocaust." I think it's just a matter of that term having evolved to refer to those particular circumstances.

The question of why school children aren't taught about the Armenian genocide is a different one. My guess is because it happened 100 years ago and no one alive today was alive then. Also, the United States was directly involved in liberating the camps and many survivors immigrated here. Israel was established as a new nation subsequent to the Holocaust and the U.S. has close ties to Israel.
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Old 07-23-2015, 03:38 PM
eok
 
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Why does it matter if we call it "the holocaust" or something else? It's just a name. If anyone wants to call it anything else, what's stopping them? One advantage of calling it "the holocaust" is that then people know what you're talking about.

Instead of asking why the Armenian genocide isn't taught in schools, ask why there aren't so many movies about it, compared to movies about the holocaust. What's different about it, that causes movie makers to not want to make so many movies about it?
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:11 PM
 
Location: New York Area
12,106 posts, read 4,411,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
Why is it that so many refer to the Jewish holocaust of the mid-20th century as THE Holocaust, with a capital H? This implies, of course, that this particular holocaust was the only one, or that it's somehow more important/tragic than all of the other holocausts seen throughout history. Shouldn't we reject this?
None of the others were aimed at destroying an entire people. Also there are some such as the Holodomer that are capitalized.

But the Holocaust (or Shoah) wsa aimed at the permanent obliteration of the Jewish people, consigning their artifacts to museums. My synagogue has a Torah scroll rescued from one such Czech "museum."

Even nowadays there are many that would rather that the Jewish people go out of existence. They mask it as "anti-Zionism" or domestically "affirmative action." The end purpose for all of those is to degrade or destroy the Jews as a people.
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Old 07-23-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: New York Area
12,106 posts, read 4,411,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorado0359 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorado0359 View Post
Do you mean "ever" as in, since the dawn or beginning of civilization/time OR do you mean "ever" as in since modern times which was observed and recorded? There is a difference.

As no one is around from antiquity, or the dawn of time and there are no written records of ALL holocausts or atrocities since the dawn of time, how can one draw the conclusion that one particular Holocaust, in a particular era is/was the biggest or most important holocaust EVER?
Crickets....
I'll venture an answer. I find your post horrific.

Resorting to pre-history or unrecorded events to minimize or sanitize a modern-day, deliberate attempt to exterminate a whole people is borderline disgusting. The Germans were supposedly civilized. They gave us Ludwig Beethoven among others. They held themselves out as a stern, strict, industrious and organized group.

They were, in fact, so organized that they were able to pull off a highly mechanized and unprovoked slaughter of millions. Throughout history there have been wars, and migrations of people that lead to mass deaths. Others have pointed to the loss of most of the Native Americans. The escape of pigs from De Soto's Florida encampment spread smallpox and other diseases through the Americas. See as my source Charles Mann's 1491.

The Holocaust was not a battle in a war. It was an attempt to wipe out the Jewish people. Related as we are to the Germans and Europeans overall by kinship and history, it was the most important and most horrific slaughter ever.
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Old 07-23-2015, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
7,359 posts, read 6,017,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mysterious Benefactor View Post
Why is it that so many refer to the Jewish holocaust of the mid-20th century as THE Holocaust, with a capital H? This implies, of course, that this particular holocaust was the only one, or that it's somehow more important/tragic than all of the other holocausts seen throughout history. Shouldn't we reject this?
I've read through a number of the responses and congratulated some on theirs, but frankly I don't think they've touched on why I believe it should be now and always referred to as "THE Holocaust," and the annihilation of so many Jews is only part of it TO ME.

Yes, Hitler DID target Jews. In fact, he tromped through countries with his jack boots to seek them out and send them to their deaths, killing others in his wake. That alone was an atrocity -- maybe not THE ATROCITY, but definitely an atrocity. But that was only the beginning.

What makes it THE HOLOCAUST to me is that it didn't stop there. The action brought to bear the anti-Semitic racism of non-Jews everywhere, which in itself was heinous. It went FURTHER. Because the Japanese "piggy backed" onto the effort to attempt their own initiatives while the rest of the world was up in arms (literally) about Hitler's invasion -- and not REALLY about the Jews, it brought out the US big guns, the atom bomb. For me in my post WWII generation, the view of the Holocaust was more about THE BOMB than it was about the Jews.

This emphasizes to me that it is now "THE Holocaust" because it was the point when not only did the depth of anti-Semiticism in the world literally get thrown in our faces, forcing us to take a stand with or against the Jews (and btw the US was one of the last to offer them refuge), but it also showed clearly what extent mankind was willing to go in war. (Much, much TOO far IMO.)

For that reason, it is not just about the destruction of a particular race, but a total and complete black mark on the depths of human depravity in the face of conflict. It is an embarrassment that has left what I hope is a permanent mark against racism and war.

A mark that far too many now have chosen to ignore.
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