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Old 07-25-2015, 04:57 PM
 
48,787 posts, read 39,288,230 times
Reputation: 30444

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LookinForMayberry View Post
As far as I know, the question asked was for a personal view, since no one is authorized to speak for us all.

As for the question of the Japanese, when I was in what was then known as junior highschool, there was much discussion about the Japanese victims of the bomb as victims of "THE Holocaust." It wasn't until I read this thread that I realized that we now see it as only a Nazi-Jew topic. I can only attribute that to the elevation in US world dominance and our allied status with Japan. I imagine if Japan had not become a trade partner, or if the US had not become the last power standing (so to speak), the victims of THE BOMB would still be considered Holocaust victims. Bottom line: we've "re-written" history by underplaying our role in the deaths and suffering of millions because we are the ones that now carry the big guns.

I suspect that is a status that is not going to continue indefinitely, but that is another topic for another thread.
Anyone that describes Japanese victims of a-bombs in such a manner basically read a 2 page article on the internet somewhere or had an uncle tell them over some beers.

1) For starters, the Japanese were killing around 100,000 asians and indians a month. We stopped that. You apparently value Japanese lives over those of chinese, malaysians, filipinos, caucasians etc.

2) After dropping the first bomb....how long did it take for them to surrender? I mean since they were in a hurry to surrender and whatnot....

3) The clincher is that you neglect to mention the tokyo firebombing....but instead focus on nukes. They did less total damage but were more sensational and thus grabbed your attention and then you f*ck*d up and picked a-bombs for you outrage because you really aren't educated on the topic.

/bam mike drop
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Old 07-25-2015, 09:49 PM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,056,835 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Wow. You ignored my post and picked others to respond to?

Your last sentence in particular is incredibly offensive and ignores the rape of nanking just for starters WHICH is pretty widely known for anyone with an education.

I got 13.8 million hits on Japanese holocaust in google.
You should've noticed that I've taken the time to respond to all relevant posts on this thread. From that, you should've assumed that your post was not relevant or otherwise worthy of a response. That "THE Holocaust" was part of WWII or well-documented does not make it more significant/tragic than the holocausts that preceded it. Nor does the creation of Israel that followed.

You finding my last sentence offensive only indicates that you haven't followed the thread, and/or are missing its entire point Moderator cut: Insulting. As I already pointed out, there is no question that there were many victims of the war and Nazi atrocities, well beyond the "6 million Jews". Yet, only they seem to have the privilege of being considered "Holocaust victims". Does anyone consider the victims from Nanking "Holocaust victims"? No, they don't.

Last edited by Jeo123; 08-03-2015 at 04:19 PM.. Reason: Insulting
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Virginia
3,460 posts, read 1,630,935 times
Reputation: 9253
Wow, so only the Jews seem to have the "privilege" of being considered Holocaust victims? You seem to have a very one-sided, dare I say anti-Semitic view of the situation. No one is denying that more than 3 million other people, i.e., homosexuals, Romanies (gypsies), and the mentally and physically impaired were also Holocaust victims (victims of the war and Nazi atrocities). Obviously, you feel that the Jews are undeserving of being termed Holocaust victims. I don't think any of those 6 million felt they were "privileged" when they were stripped, shaved, and marched into the gas chambers or abused, tortured and left to rot in work camps by the millions in a deliberate attempt to eliminate them as an entire race. Frankly, I think the intent of your original post is denigrating of the Jews and the Holocaust experience - and that is the way you intended it to be.
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Old 07-26-2015, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 49,474,339 times
Reputation: 24548
Indeed there were holocausts before WW2. There was "The Holocaust" during WW2. There will very likely be many more in the future. Human ability to hate the "others" seems to be without limit.

Just hope our government is strong enough to keep us out of any of these horror shows. Unfortunately our current War on Terror is effectively a slow motion holocaust on mostly innocent people we mistakenly decide are people we have to assassinate without care or regret. How many have we killed from on high in the last ten years? How many of these have actually been actively fighting against our attempt at world domination?
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:10 PM
 
5,154 posts, read 1,964,709 times
Reputation: 1906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
Wow, so only the Jews seem to have the "privilege" of being considered Holocaust victims? You seem to have a very one-sided, dare I say anti-Semitic view of the situation. No one is denying that more than 3 million other people, i.e., homosexuals, Romanies (gypsies), and the mentally and physically impaired were also Holocaust victims (victims of the war and Nazi atrocities). Obviously, you feel that the Jews are undeserving of being termed Holocaust victims. I don't think any of those 6 million felt they were "privileged" when they were stripped, shaved, and marched into the gas chambers or abused, tortured and left to rot in work camps by the millions in a deliberate attempt to eliminate them as an entire race. Frankly, I think the intent of your original post is denigrating of the Jews and the Holocaust experience - and that is the way you intended it to be.
I agree, especially when he states he doesn't think there can be any explanation then why did he start a thread asking for one.
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:15 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,350 posts, read 5,171,071 times
Reputation: 10716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Once you understand that critical difference, then you can understand a few other facts - Japan executive more civilians in Nanking with bullet and bayonet (again, during occupation) then were killed with the two atomic bombings in Nagasaki and Hiroshima (we won't even get into the fact that the J.I.A. murders possibly exceeded Nazi Germany during there 10+ years of Chinese war), the invasion of Japan was being planned - an event that would have taken an estimated half a million allied casualties had the atomic bombs not been dropped, Hiroshima were military targets (having significant JIA military presence and infrastructure)...and, simply enough, the terrible concept of Total War was in play - every citizen was an enemy UNTIL they surrendered because they contributed to the war efforts. Horrible as it is - that was the way the war was faught by both sides. The fire bombings of Tokyo by the way also created more casualties then the two atomic bombs (the "bomb(s)" by the way did not cause "millions of deaths", that is an extreme exaggeration - I think that is more telling then anything on your ignorance on the subject).

Now let's break this down:
What happened when Poland surrendered and portions of Russia were occupied?
Germany - Killed everyone, starting with Jews, moved on to the Slavs.
What happened when portion of China were occupied
Japan - Killed everyone, raped women and children.
What happened when Germany and Japan surrendered?
US - Rebuilt. Offered Aid.
I cited this post with approval here (link) as an example of how the West is squeamish about actually winning. As you sum up, most of our enemies don't give a rat's arse about harming civilians. We do.There is nothing wrong with caring about civilian casualties.

There is a lot wrong with trying to force Western countries to fight with both hands tied behind their backs. That happened in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq. We were dainty, wound up losing a lot of lives, and accomplishing very little. Korea was a bit better; at least South Korea lived to become a First World country. But the others were senseless slaughters. And oh by the way, we foreswear using mercenaries so we're putting hundreds of thousand of dollars of education per soldier on the battlefield. No reason we should make ourselves suffer.
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Old 07-27-2015, 05:41 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,056,835 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
Wow, so only the Jews seem to have the "privilege" of being considered Holocaust victims? You seem to have a very one-sided, dare I say anti-Semitic view of the situation. No one is denying that more than 3 million other people, i.e., homosexuals, Romanies (gypsies), and the mentally and physically impaired were also Holocaust victims (victims of the war and Nazi atrocities). Obviously, you feel that the Jews are undeserving of being termed Holocaust victims. I don't think any of those 6 million felt they were "privileged" when they were stripped, shaved, and marched into the gas chambers or abused, tortured and left to rot in work camps by the millions in a deliberate attempt to eliminate them as an entire race. Frankly, I think the intent of your original post is denigrating of the Jews and the Holocaust experience - and that is the way you intended it to be.
They're apparently the only ones privileged enough to have their holocaust deemed "THE Holocaust". If you actually read the thread, you'll see that's been my point from the beginning. But, rather than offer an explanation as to why you find that acceptable, you've resorted to the same tired "anti-Semite" accusation. Would it be fair for me to call you anti-Armenian?
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Old 07-27-2015, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Virginia
3,460 posts, read 1,630,935 times
Reputation: 9253
I have read the entire thread. And no, I am not anti-Armenian, nor anti-Rwandan, nor anti-any other ethnic or religious groups that have been slaughtered in mass numbers. If those groups choose to refer to their collective demise as a Holocaust or "The" Holocaust, I have absolutely no objection. YOU, however, are the one who seems to take personal umbrage at the fact that the world refers to the systematic organized extinction attempt by the Nazis of the Jews as the "The Holocaust". I stand by my personal opinion that you are doing so because it was, specifically, the Jews who were targeted by Hitler and the Nazi regime. BTW, I didn't know that anti-Semitism was a "tired accusation" - after all, we're still experiencing it, more than ever in some places in the world.
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Old 07-27-2015, 06:47 AM
 
1,562 posts, read 1,056,835 times
Reputation: 2686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
I have read the entire thread. And no, I am not anti-Armenian, nor anti-Rwandan, nor anti-any other ethnic or religious groups that have been slaughtered in mass numbers. If those groups choose to refer to their collective demise as a Holocaust or "The" Holocaust, I have absolutely no objection. YOU, however, are the one who seems to take personal umbrage at the fact that the world refers to the systematic organized extinction attempt by the Nazis of the Jews as the "The Holocaust".
Prior genocides/events were in fact referred to as holocausts, until this particular one became "THE Holocaust". If only Jews, Roma, etc. were to to refer to it as such, I could understand that, but that's not the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
I stand by my personal opinion that you are doing so because it was, specifically, the Jews who were targeted by Hitler and the Nazi regime.
But you're basing that opinion on nothing. If we referred to the Armenian holocaust as "THE Holocaust", I would take an equal exception to that. And I think it's very telling that you only mention the Jews as being targeted by the Nazi regime. Surely you would agree that there were other victims equally worth remembering, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungalove View Post
BTW, I didn't know that anti-Semitism was a "tired accusation" - after all, we're still experiencing it, more than ever in some places in the world.
It is in fact a tired accusation leveled, by people like yourself, at anyone who poses any legitimate question regarding "THE Holocaust". I've said nothing against any particular ethnic group. According to your logic, does it not follow that I must be anti-Roma as well? Strangely, you haven't made that accusation.
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Old 07-27-2015, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Virginia
3,460 posts, read 1,630,935 times
Reputation: 9253
Ah, but you've changed your verbiage since your initial post, when you referred to the "Jewish Holocaust", which made your narrow view very clear. At any rate, I have no further interest in debating the concept with you. Your agenda is of no interest to me.
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