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Also people suggesting moving to a different country or blaming other country for America's downfall aren't understanding the issue. It is the grass is always greener thinking. There is no way to escape globalization unless you hermit your country off like North Korea. The thing one can do is work hard, save hard while telling everybody to spend spend spend some more. Raise your kids not with sky high expectation but with combination of optimism and realism so they can withstand disappointment and failure.
It is just globalization. In other words, the world isn't just a few countries being wealthy, it is more countries becoming affluent. I think Americans attitude resemble that of the 1%. I bet most people don't see it because they think themselves come first.
It is a much more competitive world. In our system, you better work smart, work hard, save, and invest. Plan your life strategically. And I'm sort of delighted that you mentioned telling everybody to spend spend spend. You know, few Americans get that. They think they can brag about their spending, and that they have excuses for their bad decisions, without a sense of embarrassment. But you pointed out the truth.
It is only when other people spend spend spend, that your save save save is that much more significant and meaningful. It comes down to having what others don't have. It's that difference that makes you more affluent. This whole mentality that college is great and let's get more people to go to college so they can all have hi tech jobs is idiotic and many on the left believe in it like religion.
Very interesting thread... I've seen similar arguments in other threads but the thoughts are very well written here.
I see two sides from the arguments presented here and there's truth to both of these. To simplify:
1. The Millenials -- we were sold on the idea that you work hard at school and go to college. Graduation then leads to jobs. College is very costly and we saddled ourselves with debt and found the job market ultra competitive and difficult to get started in.
2. Older realists -- I can't believe you expected to just swan through some college courses and then be handed the job of your dreams. You need to work hard to gain experience and it takes time and dedication to work your way up in a career to be successful.
On the side of Millenials and those of us in the generation before ... we were sold on this idea that "we can be whatever we want". Just do well in school and study hard and go to a good university and "do what you are passionate about" and you will be able to do that for a career. "It shouldn't feel like work"..."If you don't love what you are doing you are in the wrong career".
Those of us without the benefit of a large trust fund or rich family backing quickly found out (or are finding out) that this is not the way things work in real life and definitely not in modern times. There's not a whole lot of paid work for entry level budding marine biologists, wildlife photographers, travel writers or even many other less glamorous occupations we imagined ourselves doing for a career!
It's also totally soul-destroying to go from a very free-thinking creative University environment to an entry-level desk job or lab job or whatever else you have to fight tooth and nail for as a first job. You basically work as a machine repeating the same task all day every day with a piddly two weeks vacation per year. Coming to something like that from the flexible schedule and huge amount of time off as a student is a horrible shock and one most of us are not at all prepared for.
On the side of the older realists -- you are right we shouldn't have these high expectations and many of us were raised with a lot more privileges than previous generations. We didn't have as many of the hardships and worry of being sent off to war and many of us didn't spend summers working construction and hard labor jobs that are parents were made to do. I understand that for many folks in previous generations it was a privilege to have a job of any kind.
But we are soft. But that's because we were raised soft. As others have said before -- we were sold on the principle of academics being the end all be all. This has led to disillusionment. The massive number of us and the international nature of the job market (competing with very smart and often much more driven graduates from abroad) has made the job market extremely challenging.
You may argue that it's always been tough to get a good job. You may be right. But you can't deny that a lot of the problems in the way the younger generations behave/live life is down to the way kids have been educated in the last 20 years or so. And those results come directly from the way the previous generations raised us. Just the way it is.
Having a large middle class was never normal since the dawn of civilization. It always gravitate towards where the kings and powerful get to write history and the rest don't matter.
Prosperity is all about energy. When our oil production peaked in the 70s, that was the beginning of the end. Then came competition from overseas, and our industrial sector tanked. Yes, the computer/Internet economy went gangbusters in the 90s, but that was a double-edged sword. Why? Because computers, automation, and Internet outsourcing eliminated a ton of middle-skill jobs, which will never come back. There will probably always be high-tech jobs, but not everyone is smart enough to be a computer engineer or robotics expert.
I believe we are moving toward a two-tier economy: one for the smartest and wealthiest 1 to 10% of the population, and a low-wage McJobs economy for the remaining 90-99%.
Here in the Rust Belt, the only good paying jobs are at hospitals or universities. Or they are government jobs, but good luck getting into those without family connections. There are very few actual industries left.
The present generation is entering a brave new world where the U.S. is no longer #1, energy resources are in decline, food resources are strained by overpopulation and climate change, and globalization and automation continue to eliminate good paying jobs.
I expect a three tier economy, 10% of the brightest and advantaged, 50% McJobs, and 40% unemployable on the dole. The bottom 40% will be a permanent underclass. We already have 3 generation families where no one has held more than a temporary job.
True but it wasn't the fault of our parents, grandparents and teachers because I am sure they all truly believe it. They lived through a time of incredible growth and equality in opportunity so why would they think otherwise about the future？
Looking back throughout history the 1950s - 1980s was actually an anomaly period. There never was such a thing as "the middle class＂throughout human history except post WWII. The 19th century was the most extreme in terms of social inequality but all the crazy revolutions, world wars and the great depression in the early 20th century actually reset the world. All of sudden the rich countries are in debt and everyone is poor. Even if your rich you are subject to tax as high as 72% to help pay for national debt. Also a booming population flush with babies and immigrants America was flooded with working people starting with zero. These hard working people are then able to buy great assets such as houses, stocks, etc for cheap because there wasn't many rich people around to inflate the price and plus the rich was paying high taxes anyway. Thereby creating a unique environment where hard work correlated with success very well.
Fast forward to now, hard work still correlate with success but the correlation isn't nearly as clear where luck and family name plays a more important part. In no way am I whining about my situation since I think I am luckier than most people my age. I view our generation not as the "unlucky" generation that got jaded but more of a transitional generation on the way to returning to equilibrium. Our generation is more normal than our parent's and we all know our kids' opportunity will shrink even more if nothing is done. Our national debt is again very high and the 1% are wealthier than ever but instead of paying 70% tax the rich are paying less than 10% while massively lending to the government and making great returns on the backs our future generation.
My family has been firmly middle class in America since the 18th century, since the first Scot-Irish immigrant in 1747. Each generation moved west and pioneered the wilderness, from eastern Pennsylvania to Western Pennsylvania to Ohio to the Oregon Trail. Family reunions are interesting, because every one of my cousins is successful. They own vineyards, trucking companies, marinas, small medical clinics, or are professional engineers, doctors, nurses or executives. Middle class has been the rule for 250 years, but I am concerned about the next generation.
But you can't deny that a lot of the problems in the way the younger generations behave/live life is down to the way kids have been educated in the last 20 years or so. And those results come directly from the way the previous generations raised us. Just the way it is.
Yes.
If anything encapsulates the message we got, it's the "More You Know" public service announcements that went on NBC. I remember them well.
I'd be a little less cynical and annoyed if that messaged hadn't been pushed so hard. Will Smith 1990, "the more you know, the further you'll go." I was 7 when that came out --- when you hear that over and over again as a kid you're going to believe it, so we took that to heart and to its logical conclusion.
Having a large middle class was never normal since the dawn of civilization. It always gravitate towards where the kings and powerful get to write history and the rest don't matter.
I get what you are saying. But I don't think a middle class is impossible. Take a look at china, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, and much of Europe, a middle class can exist in various political systems, democratic or not.
The way that amercian middle class has been was a bit of an outcome of the war. Thus it didn't last. It was unusual to have so little competition, so much advantage, so little immigration, etc. all of that contributed to an easy generation.
I would also say that the social progress, especially in the 1960s, has also been a result of the prosperity, the result of a large middle class that didn't have enough to worry about. So, where does this country go on social issues? We'll see.
I expect a three tier economy, 10% of the brightest and advantaged, 50% McJobs, and 40% unemployable on the dole. The bottom 40% will be a permanent underclass. We already have 3 generation families where no one has held more than a temporary job.
My family has been firmly middle class in America since the 18th century, since the first Scot-Irish immigrant in 1747. Each generation moved west and pioneered the wilderness, from eastern Pennsylvania to Western Pennsylvania to Ohio to the Oregon Trail. Family reunions are interesting, because every one of my cousins is successful. They own vineyards, trucking companies, marinas, small medical clinics, or are professional engineers, doctors, nurses or executives. Middle class has been the rule for 250 years, but I am concerned about the next generation.
Much of this young generation aren't accumulating wealth at all. They can't endure a crisis. I don't think they can be regarded middle class, even though they may live that sort of lifestyle. Ultimately, your middle class status is about your financial capabilities, not your culture or hobbies. You need the money to back up your status.
My family has been firmly middle class in America since the 18th century, since the first Scot-Irish immigrant in 1747. Each generation moved west and pioneered the wilderness, from eastern Pennsylvania to Western Pennsylvania to Ohio to the Oregon Trail. Family reunions are interesting, because every one of my cousins is successful. They own vineyards, trucking companies, marinas, small medical clinics, or are professional engineers, doctors, nurses or executives. Middle class has been the rule for 250 years, but I am concerned about the next generation.
Yes when there's abundant free resources for the taking, opportunities will be everywhere. That's why they called it the wild wild west. The Spanish conquistadors were basically the scums of society with zero wealth but they came to the Americas with ambitions, guts, superior technology and deadly germs. Raped the whole continent and came away with billions worth of gold. If they ever discover a whole new secret continent filled with valuable resources and they need pioneers to discover and plunder, I will be there in a jiffy!
Talking about luck with resources sitting beneath their feet... No Saudis ever have to work simply because they have oil reserve. Government makes so much profit from selling oil that they can welfare their entire citizens and employee foreign workers 10x the size of their population. They don't even need to risk their life to take it from the Indians like the Conquistadors. But hey, at least we aren't starving Somalians. Such is life. As much as we like to make it seem like hard work is all that matters... luck sometimes matters much more
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