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My take is that lotsa guys become angry old curmudgeons once they realize their youth is behind them. And there are lots of them. Otherwise, Limbaugh wouldn't have an audience.
How does this add anything useful to what is an otherwise reasonable conversation?
Venice "alone" was so strong and rich to hold the Ottoman Empire at bay..
Except Venice didn't hold them at bay. In the 7 wars fought between Venice and the Ottoman's. The Venetians lost almost all of them. Losing more and more territory with each one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiago12
Florence: The city where the renaissance and scientific revolution begun... later on (XVII century) renaissance and scientific revolution spread in central and North Europe..
Venice and Florence were the most advanced and wealthy cities in the world.. not the most populated..
Most advanced...maybe during the Renaissance this point could be argued. Wealthiest cities in the world....far from it. As I already pointed out, there were cities in China, India and the Middle East that were much wealthier then Florence or Venice. Nanjing and Beijing were capitol cities for the worlds largest economy and as I already mentioned were much larger cities then anything in Europe.
Before the industrial revolution everything was done by direct labor. So the more people you had, the larger your economy was going to be. Venice and Florence during this time period were not very large cities in contrast to cities in Asia and the Middle East. Hence their economies were much smaller.
Aztecs were much better engineers than Europeans, but their culture had very little to do with the sea. Tenochtitlan was about 200 years old when it was destroyed by the Spaniards, and the Aztecs spent the second century of that 200 years building an Ocean to Ocean Empire. If the Aztecs had another century and they turned towards ocean exploration, it might have ended up very differently.
I take it you are a fan of Rudyard's poem.
Are you jocking ?
This is an Aztecs huge building
Actually it is the type of structure typical of primitive civilizations.
The pyramids were actually piles of rock
Pyramids are the structures that require the least technology to build: they are just piles of rocks. They don't have vertical walls, making it easier to bring material to the top, they don't have space inside and therefore it's entire volume consists of supporting "walls".
This is advanced and sophisticated engineering work (even for the present day)
Pantheon ROME The greatest and the most influential building in all of human history
Except Venice didn't hold them at bay. In the 7 wars fought between Venice and the Ottoman's. The Venetians lost almost all of them. Losing more and more territory with each one.
Most advanced...maybe during the Renaissance this point could be argued. Wealthiest cities in the world....far from it. As I already pointed out, there were cities in China, India and the Middle East that were much wealthier then Florence or Venice. Nanjing and Beijing were capitol cities for the worlds largest economy and as I already mentioned were much larger cities then anything in Europe.
Before the industrial revolution everything was done by direct labor. So the more people you had, the larger your economy was going to be. Venice and Florence during this time period were not very large cities in contrast to cities in Asia and the Middle East. Hence their economies were much smaller.
During renaissance time - XV century- in Venice there were at least 500 families fabulously rich.... as a today bilionarie family..
Hundreds of other aristocratic families were only millionaires
Venice popolation 160.000 citizens
During the beginning of the 14th 15th century the income per year of Venice (1.000.000 Ducats) was higher than the income of Philip IV of France and double than the income of the King of England (roughly 500000)...
L. Martines - Power and Imagination: City States in Renaissance Italy -
Palaces in Venice.. inside there are frescos and paintings of Tiepolo.. Tintoretto.. Titian.... Bellini.. Mantegna.. Canaletto..Veronese.. Giorgione....Carpaccio.. Lorenzo Lotto...
You can also enjoy this artists in the most important museum of the world.. ]
Venice "alone" was so strong and rich to hold the Ottoman Empire at bay..
And without Venice Europe would have been conquered by Muslims
A single city vs an Empire....
Florence: The city where the renaissance and scientific revolution begun... later on (XVII century) renaissance and scientific revolution spread in central and North Europe..
Venice and Florence were the most advanced and wealthy cities in the world.. not the most populated..
I thought the Ottomans were stopped at Vienna in 1529. The Austrians and the allies, mostly the Poles, defeated them. Although it was a close call. The Turks had blasted several of the outworks and laid a mine under the walls. They had lit the fuse and it was caught with only seconds to spare.
If Vienna fell, the road to Central and Western Europe would have lain open via the Danube.
Suleiman had conquered Hungary and the Balkans, killing all the men he could find and enslaving all the women. If he had conquered Vienna, we'd all be worshipping Allah today.
Long before this Otto the Great had defeated the Magyars at Lechfeld, forestalling an earlier Asiatic invasion of Europe. Although not as formidable a threat to Civilization as the Ottomans, our current lives would be unrecognizable to us had the Magyars conquered.
One would think that if Japan and South Korea could modernize, other developing countries would also be able to imitate the same success. Alas, that's not the case with many African countries today.
Asians Americans, like East Asian countries, weren't the first advanced demographic. But when you show them the blueprint to success whether it be western education to enroll into Harvard or a western capitalistic economy to build up their country, the rest is history.
No doubt there was a culture in Europe that led those Europeans to excellence. The conditions that led to those discoveries and prosperity are a human story. That same culture spawned two wars with incredible human sacrifice and suffering.
Tribalism is what keeps Africa down. Tribalism also hurt Europeans as well, the Irish did not like the british, the germans did not like the french. The Europeans however valued a court of law, and placed it in high regard then spent money on enforcement of the court decisons. A social contract if you would allow...
That is the difference, it is a social contract, a "you understood" social contract that lets everyone live more prosperous..
This is a human condition/limitation and has nothing to do with being white.
The Japanese lived incredibly well back hundreds of years ago and are an economic force today that have shown even the wealthy and complacent American Auto industry a thing or two about efficiency and quality.
The Toyota production method changed transportation. So in the wrinkle in time that you may consider, Europeans have set a good precedent for a culture of living well among each other.... but our history is ongoing and there is more information available to an ever growing population. More minds working on more problems than ever before. Expect the best, and let go of tribalism and leave the racism for the ignorant.
"Those that pride themselves on their families history are like the potato plant, the best part of them is underground."
During renaissance time - XV century- in Venice there were at least 500 families fabulously rich.... as a today bilionarie family..
Hundreds of other aristocratic families were only millionaires
Venice popolation 160.000 citizens
Having a handful of wealthy families doesn't equate to having the largest economy. China during the Ming Dynasty had a economy 8x larger then all of the Italian city states combined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiago12
During the beginning of the 14th 15th century the income per year of Venice (1.000.000 Ducats) was higher than the income of Philip IV of France and double than the income of the King of England (roughly 500000)...
Yeah and neither France nor England during that period of time were very wealthy. So its not much of a reach to believe that Venice was wealthier then England during the middle ages. BTW the economy of the neighboring Ottoman empire during this same time was 10.000.000 Ducats per year. Roughly 10 times larger then the Republic of Venice. As I said before, Venice and Florence were rich during this time period by Europeans standards not by global standards.
Actually it is the type of structure typical of primitive civilizations.
The pyramids were actually piles of rock
Pyramids are the structures that require the least technology to build: they are just piles of rocks. They don't have vertical walls, making it easier to bring material to the top, they don't have space inside and therefore it's entire volume consists of supporting "walls".
None of what you said is true.
1.) Pyramids historically were built by very complex cultures. Ancient Mesoptamia, Egypt, Greece, and the Chola Dynasty were not "primitve civilizations" by any stretch of the imagination.
2.) Just because the pyramid structure is simple doesn't mean the scale and the size of the project lacked complexity. The Pyramids of Egypt are considered a wonder of the ages because of the sheer logistically complexity of building such a structure.
When it comes to the Aztec Pyramid of the Sun. Think of the logistics and organizing you need to build a giant stone pyramid in the middle of a lake, with no metal tools, and no wheeled vehicles.
3.) Building a pyramid isn't lacking in complexities. The Pyramid of the Sun is an extremely heavy structure and it was built on an island in the middle of a marshy lake. So rapid building settlement could have resulted in a crooked pyramid. Not to mention the intricate stonework on display on many of the pyramids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asiago12
This is advanced and sophisticated engineering work (even for the present day)
Pantheon ROME The greatest and the most influential building in all of human history
And funny enough it was envisioned and designed by a genius architect and builder from Syria; Apollodorus of Damascus. Not a Roman.
1.) Pyramids historically were built by very complex cultures. Ancient Mesoptamia, Egypt, Greece, and the Chola Dynasty were not "primitve civilizations" by any stretch of the imagination.
2.) Just because the pyramid structure is simple doesn't mean the scale and the size of the project lacked complexity. The Pyramids of Egypt are considered a wonder of the ages because of the sheer logistically complexity of building such a structure.
When it comes to the Aztec Pyramid of the Sun. Think of the logistics and organizing you need to build a giant stone pyramid in the middle of a lake, with no metal tools, and no wheeled vehicles.
Think of the logistic and technonology you need to dig the NEMI emissary tunnel ( Italy) 5th century B.C.
It is 1.700 mt long under a hill..
The emissary is an extraordinary hydraulic work. It was built by two teams that started from the opposite, digging under the mountain. Ventilation wells were not possible, as the tunnel runs under a rock thickness of 80-100 meters. The two teams found themselves, only 1.5 meter wrong. The meeting point is still evident, because there is a horizontal misalignment and a jump of 1.5 meters vertically. Along the tunnel, with boots and helmet, with torches you can still see the chisel blows that, about 25 centuries ago, opened the passage between holding lava and pozzolane, or in harder basaltic rocks
Quote:
And funny enough it was envisioned and designed by a genius architect and builder from Syria; Apollodorus of Damascus. Not a Roman.
Saint Paul was jewish and a ROMAN Citizen
Massimo Trace emperor was Germanic and not Italian
This is a touchy topic. I am not white so don't blame me for not knowing about exactly which demography among whites achieved what it did in arts/science/infrastructure etc. For me its just the white civilization that created cities like Sydney and Toronto and NYC.
I created a similar topic a few years ago. There was a debate panel at my Uni and this question arose. The white guy sitting there(a very non PC pandering dude) stated simply this: Most whites have a individualist mindset. A desire to explore the unknown, a desire of creativity, a desire of self expression. Most other immigrants are simply collectivist in their approach. A Pakistani will favor Pakistani culture, an African American will usually side with his own ilk(OJ Simpson had support of 97% African Americans even though deep down they knew he was wrong). This is what made this civilization what it was especially the early 20th century generation who built these cities, lay a foundation, questioned irrationality.
He also said that this is why the world is dumbing down. Today's youngsters are self centered and clueless. Everyone is PC correct(except when it comes to issues relating to whites) and the minority model of tribalism will eventually destroy civilization. The forefathers who lived in the 20s-60s created a just society which is being slowly but surely eradicated.
What is your take on this debate. Be honest.
It's not white civilization ... it's western civilization. Perhaps you meant, Why has Western Civilization been so successful? By the way, Anglo Saxons are not the only white people.
Anyway, Anglo Saxons became successful by embracing Western Civilization. I take it that you have not studied the ancient roots of Western Civilization or the subsequent histories of the Western World.
Kids today (last 30 years) are taught that Western Civilization is bad and, yes, it's dumbing them down.
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