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Old 07-08-2016, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,367 posts, read 6,786,875 times
Reputation: 14412

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As this is being written, we are again dealing with the outrage and hand wringing over the killing of five police officers in Dallas, and over several incidents in which citizens, usually African-Americans in urbanized areas, were shot and/or killed in confrontations with law officers.

The way the alarmists tell it, American society is degenerating into one enormous parallel to Deadwood, Dodge City or Tombstone. But I feel that our current rush to judgement needs to be re-evaluated in the light of historical fact.

The Civil War was by far the bloodiest episode in American history; the most liberal estimates put the total loss of men in uniform (on both sides, and from all causes, including illness, and accidents), at about 750,000. Let's double that figure to allow for civilian deaths, malnutrition, etc. So that the most vicious demonstration of man's inhumanity to man on the North American continent took, at most, a million and a half lives.

Now let's contrast this with those lives lost, directly or indirectly, to military action and persecution on the European continent between 1914 and 1945; this is usually estimated at between 80 and 95 million.

Yet there are many self-proclaimed Illuminati at this site who are quick to hold up the supposed greater "refinement" of Eutopen societies, (not to mention the efforts at disarming most of the population), as an example of human progress.

Because, as demonstrated by a current thread on the fatal mauling of suspected African poachers by a pride of lions, blood-lust (in fantasy, at least) lies within the psyche of more than a few self-proclaimed "believers in the peaceable kingdom".

Wow, Karma! Pride of Lions Kills 5 Poachers in Sneak Attack

And I would suggest that the capacity to legitimize, and to harness the resentments of a large number of followers under a banner carried by a handful of ideologues produces a far stronger threat, and to a far greater number of law-abiding, but disempowered citizens, than does a an occasional small spasm in an armed, vigilant society -- one that is neither so trusting, nor so eager to find a scapegoat.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-08-2016 at 05:18 PM..
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Old 07-09-2016, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
9,796 posts, read 7,106,581 times
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Propensity for violence is not purely an American trait wherever there is humans there is violence.
The most basic violence is you have something I want so I beat you up or kill you and take it. This violence could be over money, property or land.

Another form of violence is waged by ideology. I believe in this leader or God and since you don't I will treat you like an animal and kill you.

Violence often stems from ignorance. If we would just understand that our potential enemy wants what we want more or less there would be less violence.
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Old 07-10-2016, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,367 posts, read 6,786,875 times
Reputation: 14412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
Propensity for violence is not purely an American trait wherever there is humans there is violence.
The most basic violence is you have something I want so I beat you up or kill you and take it. This violence could be over money, property or land.

Another form of violence is waged by ideology. I believe in this leader or God and since you don't I will treat you like an animal and kill you.(emphasis added)

Violence often stems from ignorance. If we would just understand that our potential enemy wants what we want more or less there would be less violence.
Thank you for pointing this out; it's exactly the point I seek to emphasize -- because, with the exceptions of the people who came here in slave ships (many of whom caught on quickly when given the opportunity), and the Native peoples who were here originally (the most sympathetic casualties -- because many could not grasp the cultural gap), the people who morphed into the American Nation were rebels and free-thinkers; they wanted noting more than to grow and develop free of the power-structure from which they had escaped.

And let there be no mistake about it; both -- in fact, all of the participants in the current struggle for power within the Beltway merely seek a stronger method to impose their point of view.

But of those engaged in the struggle, those driven mostly by ideology, and seeking to recruit mostly among the young, the alienated and the impressionable, are a far greater threat. This is the strategy that soaked Europe (particularly the less-democratized Eastern and Southern regions) in blood during the first half of the Twentieth Century.

If the occasional minor outbreaks and tensions which have characterized American life since the early Sixties are the "safety valve" by which some of us occasionally pay a price -- consider the alternative.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
9,796 posts, read 7,106,581 times
Reputation: 17909
We are evolving into a society where the only way to get attention is to commit a heinous act like a mass shooting or in Dallas, shooting cops.
There are so many hate groups from isis in the ME to many in the US including what the BLM has morphed into.

People are angry and upset at their lives and outlook so they blame others and take it out on anyone within their reach.

What is the difference when the BLM group shouts death to cops "pigs in a blanket fry em like bacon" where they are lumping all cops onto the same pile of the few that are actually bad and other people that see a terrorist on TV who is a muslim and suddenly all muslims are lumped onto that pile? How about the millions of responsible law abiding gun owners that get lumped into the demon pile when someone uses a gun to kill people?

The biggest problem that I see today VS the protests of the 60's is that the average guy is looking for trouble and will destroy and kill because he thinks it is his right to do so.
Killing someone certainly sends a message but when it comes to the BLM group do they really want that kind of message to go out or are they becoming more like isis?

Regardless of why someone kills either because their cause or religion calls for it, it is nothing more than a misguided thought that does nothing to promote the positive message.

People are angry and like children they don't have the minds to do anything but strike out.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:11 PM
Status: "It takes a lot of balls to golf like me" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Charleston, SC
3,943 posts, read 3,186,123 times
Reputation: 3394
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
As this is being written, we are again dealing with the outrage and hand wringing over the killing of five police officers in Dallas, and over several incidents in which citizens, usually African-Americans in urbanized areas, were shot and/or killed in confrontations with law officers.

The way the alarmists tell it, American society is degenerating into one enormous parallel to Deadwood, Dodge City or Tombstone. But I feel that our current rush to judgement needs to be re-evaluated in the light of historical fact.

The Civil War was by far the bloodiest episode in American history; the most liberal estimates put the total loss of men in uniform (on both sides, and from all causes, including illness, and accidents), at about 750,000. Let's double that figure to allow for civilian deaths, malnutrition, etc. So that the most vicious demonstration of man's inhumanity to man on the North American continent took, at most, a million and a half lives.

Now let's contrast this with those lives lost, directly or indirectly, to military action and persecution on the European continent between 1914 and 1945; this is usually estimated at between 80 and 95 million.

Yet there are many self-proclaimed Illuminati at this site who are quick to hold up the supposed greater "refinement" of Eutopen societies, (not to mention the efforts at disarming most of the population), as an example of human progress.

Because, as demonstrated by a current thread on the fatal mauling of suspected African poachers by a pride of lions, blood-lust (in fantasy, at least) lies within the psyche of more than a few self-proclaimed "believers in the peaceable kingdom".

Wow, Karma! Pride of Lions Kills 5 Poachers in Sneak Attack

And I would suggest that the capacity to legitimize, and to harness the resentments of a large number of followers under a banner carried by a handful of ideologues produces a far stronger threat, and to a far greater number of law-abiding, but disempowered citizens, than does a an occasional small spasm in an armed, vigilant society -- one that is neither so trusting, nor so eager to find a scapegoat.
I suggest you turn your eyes to one of the many blood lust websites available to you free of charge. You will find that America, and Americans are quite civil. We do have violence like every other country has, but we are quite sheltered from the horrors of the world. Brasil, for instance, is a veritable crap hole. The systems in that country have degraded to below 3rd world status, and institutions such as the prison system regularly see mass beheadings, torture, and the complete discarding of lives. Gangs there are 100 times worse that here in America on the violence scale. The police will shoot on sight at known or suspected criminals. Violence against gays, women, the poor, the rich, tourists, everyone is on a grande scale compared to here.

...And yet we are pumping billions into their economy this year with the Olympics...

Brasil is quite tame compared to Peru, Guatemala, the DRC, Liberia, South America, Iraq, Syria, Colombia even "white" countries such as Kosovo and Croatia have had major violence in the past 10 years on a scale that no amount of violence in America is compared to. America is still a very safe, tame, sterile, civilized place to live compared to the rest of the world.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:03 AM
 
9,701 posts, read 6,669,821 times
Reputation: 9775
Americans don't have a "propensity for violence". In fact crime rates tend to be lower than other first world western nations.

The difference in the U.S. is the ready availability of guns, esp. high powered weaponry. No other country has such insane gun laws, hence we have far more homicides. Yet the politicians don't care. They're bought by the NRA.

You see with that horrible Dallas shooting, there were 20-30 guys open carrying, and when the cops started getting executed, the cops were totally confused and had no idea who was who (and of course all the gun-toting "good guys" ran away, putting a lie to the notion that open carry protects the public). Both the Mayor and Police Chief say that changes to the law are necessary. But no chance in Texas of 2016.
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:33 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,222 posts, read 6,991,337 times
Reputation: 6603
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Americans don't have a "propensity for violence". In fact crime rates tend to be lower than other first world western nations.

The difference in the U.S. is the ready availability of guns, esp. high powered weaponry. No other country has such insane gun laws, hence we have far more homicides. Yet the politicians don't care. They're bought by the NRA.

You see with that horrible Dallas shooting, there were 20-30 guys open carrying, and when the cops started getting executed, the cops were totally confused and had no idea who was who (and of course all the gun-toting "good guys" ran away, putting a lie to the notion that open carry protects the public). Both the Mayor and Police Chief say that changes to the law are necessary. But no chance in Texas of 2016.
Sorry NOLA but anyone that has had to deal with a "sniper" knows that they will not be carrying openly. They will be concealed and very difficult to spot. There are plenty of examples of open (and concealed carry) saving lives but you don't want to admit that because it doesn't fit your agenda. Go to YouTube for plenty of examples. Then multiply by ????? because a very small percentage of these incidents are captured on video.

Remember the Dallas Sniper spent many hours of planning (according to investigators) but the cops and civilians on the scene had to react almost instantly.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:32 AM
 
3,280 posts, read 4,602,411 times
Reputation: 3069
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Americans don't have a "propensity for violence". In fact crime rates tend to be lower than other first world western nations.
Which other first world western nations were you thinking of? Central America, Brazil, Colombia, Venezuela, Jamaica? The northern borderland of Mexico? They are all western nations, but I don't know if you can call them first-world.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:38 AM
 
5,273 posts, read 11,907,338 times
Reputation: 5745
Gratuitous violence is in our books, comics, music, TV, movies, video games, concerts, social media... It continuously engulfs us.


Then add to the mix a near total breakdown in early mental health detection, and mental health care and various cultures that want to live the creed of the media violence and this is what we get.


We then add to the mix cradle to grave welfare and legalization of drugs so people don't have to work and they can evolve into this ghetto mentality.


And if this isn't enough, add to it the proliferation of guns and it creates a toxic mess. And, yes, I have to give the always standard disclaimer for those of you dropped out of school after the 2nd grade that we all realize you can kill with knives, bombs and bad cooking so please don't go there. I also believe in the second amendment.


To change this culture of violence we have to fully address violence in all forms of media, mental health issues, cradle to grave welfare and guns. To look at one or two simply isn't going to work. It simply allows the cancer to keep growing. But each person is too busy defending their area of complicity to care.


In short, we are our own worst enemy.
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,367 posts, read 6,786,875 times
Reputation: 14412
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLAZER PROPHET View Post
Gratuitous violence is in our books, comics, music, TV, movies, video games, concerts, social media... It continuously engulfs us.
Have you ever seen an Indian (Asian) soap opera? The fictional death rate there makes American media seem tame by comparison.
Quote:

To change this culture of violence we have to fully address violence in all forms of media, mental health issues, cradle to grave welfare and guns. To look at one or two simply isn't going to work. It simply allows the cancer to keep growing. But each person is too busy defending their area of complicity to care.

In short, we are our own worst enemy.
"We" don't have to do anything -- nor should we; your emphasis on some supposed "common good" merely identifies you as one more wannabee fig-leaf hanger who is sure they know what's best for all of us.

My point in the original post was that the spirit of rebellion and non-conformity is central to the American character; It occasionally boils over with tragic results. Europeans, on the other hand (and especially those confined to a low socio-economic status), tend to let their resentments stew and simmer, until one ideologue with an easy answer turns up. Then the bodies pile up a lot faster, and with a lot more innocent people caught up in a struggle they neither started, nor care that much about.

The "American" system might create some very sad stories in the short run, but when compared to the institutionalized brutality of Europe (which recently boiled over as recently as 1990, in Bosnia), it may not be that great a price to pay.

Absolute peace and security? Fahgeddaboudit! Ain't gonna happen in the bloody Real World.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 07-11-2016 at 08:47 AM..
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