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Old 09-13-2016, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,374 posts, read 6,790,399 times
Reputation: 14413

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MODERATORS: Please feel free to move this thread if you deem it necessary, but preferably to Current Events rather than an arena for the usual partisanship. I'm seeking input on the possibility and effect of a deeply fragmented, rather than bi-polarized electorate.

I'll start this thread by identifying myself as a Republican-turned-Libertarian who has maintained a long interest in politics and statecraft for all but the first dozen or so of my 67 years. I've held to a strong economic conservative / social liberal value system since my college days, rooted in a basic conviction that the two standards are unitary and indivisible -- you can not interfere with one without corrupting the other.

But the preceding paragraph was about ideology, and the day-to-day operation of our nation-state is about realpolitik. Despite my conservative leanings, I recognize the need for a basic "safety net" -- if only due to the fragile nature of daily existence in an increasingly de-industrialized, over-commercialized, service-oriented economy. And having lived during some of the darkest days of the Cold War, and educated myself about the incredible barbarism of the three decades preceding it, I recognize that the expansion of "tested" democracies -- ruled by the free exchange of ideas and opinion as well as goods, is civilization's best hope.

I've heard it suggested that the competition among nation-states can be compared to a decathlon -- no competitor will win every event, but the United States, with its great diversity of intellectual as well as natural resources, usually comes out on or near the top. If we're unpopular in some quarters, that has been the case for strong nations throughout history; we maintain alliances and diplomatic ties with more partner nations than any other participant.

But we haven't presented ourselves as particularly civil or respectful of late; I'll offer no criticism beyond saying that the two front-runners represent a supposed "maverick" who muscled his way to power in a party badly polarized by dissent on a number of issues, and a well-schooled political insider trying to continue her predecessor's "riding herd" on a diverse collection of polarizing advocacies and special interests. Neither wants to discuss long-term economic conditions that fly in the face of their agendae, both of them have displayed a harsher side in recent months, and one now faces an inquiry on health issues -- regarding both the severity, and the amount, or lack thereof, of frankness in placing the facts before the public.

If Ms. Clinton encounters additional difficulties and decides, or is simply compelled to step aside, I strongly doubt that the positions represented by Sanders and Warren on one side, and Biden and Kaine on the other, can come to any sort of agreement. The power and abuse of "super delegates" has left a bad taste on a lot of palates. Johnson and Stein both appeal to people with well-defined (and incompatible) basic beliefs, but neither one is likely to win a single electoral vote.

So if Clinton is forced out, we end up with a three-way contest, and one with a far more even distribution of relative strength than the divisions of 1912. The possibility of a Presidential election being settled in the House of Representatives becomes much stronger.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 09-13-2016 at 11:12 PM..

 
Old 09-14-2016, 06:47 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,222 posts, read 6,992,930 times
Reputation: 6603
"So if Clinton is forced out, we end up with a three-way contest, and one with a far more even distribution of relative strength than the divisions of 1912. The possibility of a Presidential election being settled in the House of Representatives becomes much stronger."

If Hillary should die or be indicted before the Nov 8 election does anybody know what the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure for replacing her would be? My guess would be that her VP running partner would be the choice. If she should be incapacitated after the election and Hillary did win I would think her VP would replace her by the process outlined in the Constitution.

My theory on the recent UNPRECEDENTED seismic activity: Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.
 
Old 09-14-2016, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,374 posts, read 6,790,399 times
Reputation: 14413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
"So if Clinton is forced out, we end up with a three-way contest, and one with a far more even distribution of relative strength than the divisions of 1912. The possibility of a Presidential election being settled in the House of Representatives becomes much stronger."

If Hillary should die or be indicted before the Nov 8 election does anybody know what the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure for replacing her would be? My guess would be that her VP running partner would be the choice. If she should be incapacitated after the election and Hillary did win I would think her VP would replace her by the process outlined in the Constitution.

My theory on the recent UNPRECEDENTED seismic activity: Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.
Good point. But the nation has never faced a situation in which a Presidential candidate died, or their activities "came under a cloud" in the last few weeks before Election Day. And the closest parallels (1876 and 2000) don't represent a very orderly process. Perhaps the best example can be found in the re-establishment of functional state governments in the South during Reconstruction -- and the scenario isn't pretty.
 
Old 09-14-2016, 07:44 AM
 
12,429 posts, read 14,559,489 times
Reputation: 14127
clinton is sick.....if she gets voted in and then can't proceed she'll no doubt appoint her vice president to replace her....voting for her could be like voting Obama back in....I think that's her and his plan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcxDWsuaQMY
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:06 AM
 
1,869 posts, read 1,178,599 times
Reputation: 3100
You're concept is incredibly ridiculous. Do you feel like you are stooping as low as I think you are? You didn't need to identify yourself as a Republican, and Is there a reason you don't feel the need to do things the right way, like everyone else??

YOU DO KNOW ABOUT THIS.. RIGHT??

http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...controversies/

Its not a "great debate" if you have to explain the concept..
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,374 posts, read 6,790,399 times
Reputation: 14413
I'm asking for opinions as to what might happen if a Presidential election again enters "uncharted territory" -- not much more. I believe that my personal position allows myself (as well as most of both the Libertarian and Green voters) to observe things in relative detachment; but Presidential politics has become an increasingly nasty arena in recent years, and the "handlers" at both poles are stoking the flames of discontent among the foot soldiers -- not to mention the camp-followers. Neither side has shown much interest in better-defining the rules, or honoring them.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 09-14-2016 at 08:28 AM..
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
9,801 posts, read 7,111,943 times
Reputation: 17917
If Hillary survives her health issues and continues to dodge the law and becomes the President but shortly after finds herself in a hospital bed will she be willing to relinquish the thrown?


We have had Presidents who have died in office and the VP steps in but have we ever had one that was too chronically ill to carry out the daily duties of the office?

There is precedent for a President to step down when they are one step from a prison cell but what would happen if that person was one step from the morgue?
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Texas
32,544 posts, read 17,650,891 times
Reputation: 18664
You worry too much. Right wing desperate hopes for Hillary having sever health problems just aren't bearing fruit. She'll be back on the campaign trail soon.

Sit back and enjoy the spectacle as she dumps Drumpf.
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,891 posts, read 8,873,507 times
Reputation: 18296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
If Hillary survives her health issues and continues to dodge the law and becomes the President but shortly after finds herself in a hospital bed will she be willing to relinquish the thrown?


We have had Presidents who have died in office and the VP steps in but have we ever had one that was too chronically ill to carry out the daily duties of the office?

There is precedent for a President to step down when they are one step from a prison cell but what would happen if that person was one step from the morgue?
This is supposed a non-partisan type of thread.

But yes, we did have one that was too chronically ill to carry out the daily duties of the office -- Woodrow Wilson. Wilson had a major stroke on a trip through the West to advocate for the League Of Nations and was quite incapacitated.
 
Old 09-14-2016, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 6,827,947 times
Reputation: 37337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
"So if Clinton is forced out, we end up with a three-way contest, and one with a far more even distribution of relative strength than the divisions of 1912. The possibility of a Presidential election being settled in the House of Representatives becomes much stronger."

If Hillary should die or be indicted before the Nov 8 election does anybody know what the CONSTITUTIONAL procedure for replacing her would be? My guess would be that her VP running partner would be the choice. If she should be incapacitated after the election and Hillary did win I would think her VP would replace her by the process outlined in the Constitution.

My theory on the recent UNPRECEDENTED seismic activity: Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.
What?

There is no 'Constitutional procedure'. A party can replace her as they see fit as their nominee. The Constitution has nothing whatsoever with the choosing of Presidential nominees. The DNC would replace the nominee - that's per party bylaws, not the Constitution.

If she died between Election Day and the meeting/voting of the College of Electors (which occurs on the Monday following the second Wednesday of December -- 12/19 this year), then the Electors pledged to her could vote for her, or for someone else. The latter is the likeliest eventuality. The Democratic Party would probably choose an alternate candidate, but the Electors would not be bound to vote for that candidate. Still, most if not all likely would. Kaine would very likely be the candidate.

If she died between the casting of Electoral College votes and January 20, 2017, then per the Constitution (Amendment XX, Section 3) the vice President-elect becomes President on Inauguration Day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
We have had Presidents who have died in office and the VP steps in but have we ever had one that was too chronically ill to carry out the daily duties of the office?
Seriously? Woodrow Wilson. For the last 17 months of his Presidency, he was incapacitated and only his wife had access to him. Edith Wilson effectively served as President during that span. President Garfield was incapacitated for 11 weeks after being shot until he finally expired - President McKinley similarly for the week it took him to die. Subsequently, we have Amendment XXV that deals with such issues. This isn't arcane history or politics, people - it's pretty basic.
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