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Old 10-16-2016, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,409 posts, read 6,817,046 times
Reputation: 14473

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightlysparrow View Post
So did your citizenship classes lead you to volunteer for service in Vietnam? Because your extended bio skipped over that big life event.
Why would it? A libertarian orientation sees no reason in the use of totalitarian measures (blind nationalism, or the draft) to fight totalitarianism -- or to fight it 8000 miles away (using World War ii tactics) when it was allowed to exist 90 miles from our shores. Better to allow the open exchange of human opinion to cause institutionalized Marxism to collapse under the weight of its own chains -- which it eventually did!

"Citizenship" merely implies active participation in the process of statecraft; it does not imply rigid subscription to a particular orthodoxy within that arena.

But from the tone of your post, it appears that you, like too many of those in the Great Lefty Playpen, are eager to smear all those who fail to buy into the snake oil of Political Correctness, as stereotypical holdovers from the McCarthy Era.
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Old 10-16-2016, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Live in NY State, work in CT
8,837 posts, read 14,260,097 times
Reputation: 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I wand to debunk -- to some extent -- your premise that the American education system is "dominated by the teachers' unions".

In my career, early on I taught in 3 districts in New York State, and I wasn't even aware of a teacher's union doing anything.

Then I taught for about 7 years in Maryland, where I was a building rep for 2 years. Except for annual contract negotiations at the district level, our union was not influential within individual schools.

Then, where I was an administrator in Virginia, there was very little influence of "unions", because it's a right-to-work state. For example in approximately 20 years of being an administrator there, I got a complaint from the union ONCE. And that was immediately dismissed by the assistant superintendent and the teacher got transferred. Roughly half the states are RTW states.

I'm not saying that teacher unions have no influence. They do. But it is not to the extent that you think it is. You're intentionally -- or perhaps unintentionally -- spewing the party/conservative line -- you did it twice above -- the all-consuming power of the unions and political correctness.
And for that matter, teachers unions existed back then too.
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:18 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,914,564 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
Yes that's exactly right: asking people to simply stand for the anthem or pledge is equivocal to the Cultural Revolution....
I don't think that "equivocal" was the word you meant to use here. It basically means "ambiguous". I'm sure a teacher would have explained that to you at some point. Meanwhile, all forms of command-driven knee-jerk reverence and patriotism are objectionable. It's just the entirely voluntary forms that actually have any meaning. And while your own "Little Red Book" may be a different color, it certainly does sound like you have one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
The miseducation and ignorance is completely intentional and by design, of course. It's a lot easier to control a population when it's dumb.
People should know phony made-up surgical wait-times when they see them. I guess some do while some don't.
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:24 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,914,564 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
They defined their own morality via the contradictory and self-serving pretzel logic that devolved into "Political Correctness"...
PC involves being less hurtful to others. That's all there is to it. What sort of person cannot adapt to that or would even need to?
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,409 posts, read 6,817,046 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
I don't think that "equivocal" was the word you meant to use here. It basically means "ambiguous". I'm sure a teacher would have explained that to you at some point.
I believe the word both of you are searching for is "equivalent"

But the point remains: Since its emergence, now half a century ago, the libertarian perspective has opposed both the blind obedience preached by the "traditionalist" Right, and the economic ignorance peddled by the radical Left -- because both rely upon the concentration, and abuse, of the legal monopoly on coercion based in the nation-state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
PC involves being less hurtful to others. That's all there is to it. What sort of person cannot adapt to that or would even need to?
Except for the fact that your "reasoning" is not anchored in, for example, the recognition that political, expressionary, and economic liberties are unitary and indivisible -- that the right to private property and freedom of enterprise is as important as the right to freedom of speech.

You have merely assembled a collection of sometimes-contradictory platitudes, sanctioned them as Absolutely Politically Correct, and set your own clique up as judge, jury, and court of final appeal.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 10-16-2016 at 08:43 AM..
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Old 10-16-2016, 08:57 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,914,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
I believe the word both of you are searching for is "equivalent"
I can't believe you posted that! As misbegotten as the rest of your post is, it can't top the above!
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:19 AM
 
3,709 posts, read 3,035,415 times
Reputation: 10040
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
" like too many of those in the Great Lefty Playpen",
I think he's drilled down to his point, It's a shame that so many of us see through the ruse of our impotent two party politics, but nonetheless seem hog tied by worse dogma, which promises an all too familiar brand of political salvation..This has been the biggest problem with political philosophy, it always assumes a better human condition than reality allows.

Once we're willing to admit the fact of a huge socio/economic divide as our norm we can easily see that citizenship will have many connotations, i.e., some will march to the tune of popular culture as it relates to politics, others will see their citizen role as that of a patriot warrior, and, still more will fall for the myth of the "one true way."

Political differences which stem from one's own life experience should always be given more weight as opposed to those who's differences are conjured from a theoretical base. The terms "left" and "right" aren't really adequate to serve as our sole personal definition, most of America seems to be a bit more complex than that.
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:26 AM
 
3,765 posts, read 1,682,046 times
Reputation: 5174
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I wand to debunk -- to some extent -- your premise that the American education system is "dominated by the teachers' unions".

In my career, early on I taught in 3 districts in New York State, and I wasn't even aware of a teacher's union doing anything.

Then I taught for about 7 years in Maryland, where I was a building rep for 2 years. Except for annual contract negotiations at the district level, our union was not influential within individual schools.

Then, where I was an administrator in Virginia, there was very little influence of "unions", because it's a right-to-work state. For example in approximately 20 years of being an administrator there, I got a complaint from the union ONCE. And that was immediately dismissed by the assistant superintendent and the teacher got transferred. Roughly half the states are RTW states.

I'm not saying that teacher unions have no influence. They do. But it is not to the extent that you think it is. You're intentionally -- or perhaps unintentionally -- spewing the party/conservative line -- you did it twice above -- the all-consuming power of the unions and political correctness.
You should see state budget time in Albany, NY. It's one TV add and demonstration after another. More money, fewer charter schools, looser standards, weaker evaluations. They always get 90% of what they want at least. No one comes close to their influence around here. Especially not taxpayers.

One aspect of citizenship that doesn't get mentioned much is duty. President Obama said, "..a freedom which only asks what's in it for me, a freedom without a commitment to others, a freedom without love or charity or duty or patriotism, is unworthy of our founding ideals, and those who died in their defense." I think it's a very valid point. Duty is part of citizenship and it's the part least played.

Its extends to all people. Not just the well off. Those who are not well off also have a duty to others: to be as light a burden as possible, to help row the boat, to be worthy of the assistance they receive.

Duty must be reciprocal. It can't be imposed on just some. Everyone has a part to play and they must play it. If they refuse it they lose their claim on others.
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Caribou, Me.
4,952 posts, read 3,540,394 times
Reputation: 3476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pub-911 View Post
I don't think that "equivocal" was the word you meant to use here. It basically means "ambiguous". I'm sure a teacher would have explained that to you at some point. Meanwhile, all forms of command-driven knee-jerk reverence and patriotism are objectionable. It's just the entirely voluntary forms that actually have any meaning. And while your own "Little Red Book" may be a different color, it certainly does sound like you have one.


People should know phony made-up surgical wait-times when they see them. I guess some do while some don't.
I didn't think it was the right word myself. But I was too lazy and tired to double check.
I am sure you do know the correct word for your correction... It starts with P.....
Who said anything about "command driven"?? (But how many students today know anything about Woodrow Wilson in WW2, now that you mention that??)
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Old 10-16-2016, 10:47 AM
 
4,229 posts, read 1,914,564 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
I didn't think it was the right word myself. But I was too lazy and tired to double check.
I am sure you do know the correct word for your correction... It starts with P.....
There's an L-word you should be more concerned over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
Who said anything about "command driven"??
I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
(But how many students today know anything about Woodrow Wilson in WW2, now that you mention that??)
Well, Wilson died in 1924, this despite having two W's as his popular initials.
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