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Status:
"A solution in search of a problem"
(set 17 days ago)
Location: New York Area
34,488 posts, read 16,568,826 times
Reputation: 29655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
I don't have to "mix" with anyone from Black Lives Matter. I am a Black woman, so I know first hand what it's like to be Black in this country.
Yes. You obviously can think and write even if I totally disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
No, BLM members do not want special treatment. They want equal treatment. They want to be treated like human beings. They want to not have the people who are supposed to serve and protect all citizens automatically assume the worst of them because of what they look like or how they dress.
Wrong. It's their challenge to the idea that poice have a monopoly on the lawful use of violence. That idea is central to any civilized society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
Change is not made by people being silent. Why do you expect any group of people to sit down and shut up and tolerate repeated acts of injustice, just because their standing up makes some of you uncomfortable? Exactly what special treatment are those involved in BLM asking for? To not have black and brown people repeatedly shot down like dogs. Yeah, how dare they demand they get to actually walk around this country breathing and existing like any other human being! *smh*
I don't know. I have no problem with moving in the direction to which a police officer requests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
Did Eric Garner want special treatment?
That probably was along with the recent Minnesota killing the most heart-wrenching of these incidents. There was the element of defiance of the police. A poor choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
Did Tamir Rice want special treatment?
Waving a toy gun? Not smart
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
Did Keith Scott want special treatment?
He was apparently armed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gibbsnm
Good lord, if you really this movement is about wanting special treatment then you don't have a clue and haven't even bothered to educate yourself on its origin. I guess you think those pesky protesters from the 60s shouldn't have had their marches and sit ins either. Was not wanting separate water fountains, bathrooms, schools, etc. as if we were a completely different species also asking for special treatment? The rest of your post indicates that you clearly have no idea about people who aren't like you, which is why I'm not even going to waste time responding to that nonsense. I can't believe how sheltered and blind to reality some of you folks are. Perhaps you should try viewing the world from a perspective other than your own cozy, protected bubble.
I don't know. I raised my children to obey officers. If they say "jump" the only question is "how high"?
I didn't say I personally respect Trump. But his will at 12:05 p.m. on January 20, 2017 be President. I was willing to give Obama a chance, not that I had much choice as a middle-class lawyer from Westchester County. But Obama quickly sought world esteem at the expense of his country.
Let's start with the U.S. having the world's greatest combination of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and great though not unlimited economic freedom. Find me a match or better.
You know, you could look at the freedom index for example, and see a list of countries that do it better. And in fact there are indexs for every item you list. The US is not on the top. Hasn't been for some times, and we've been dropping on the list for a while. Guess it happened so slow you didn't notice.
But dont let facts sway you. You have your iron clad opinion I am sure.
Status:
"A solution in search of a problem"
(set 17 days ago)
Location: New York Area
34,488 posts, read 16,568,826 times
Reputation: 29655
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar
You know, you could look at the freedom index for example, and see a list of countries that do it better. And in fact there are indexs for every item you list. The US is not on the top. Hasn't been for some times, and we've been dropping on the list for a while. Guess it happened so slow you didn't notice.
But dont let facts sway you. You have your iron clad opinion I am sure.
I mean obviously hte overall combo of the various kinds of freedom. You're quite right; the U.S. is not at the top of any of the freedomhouse.org indices.
Maybe your brother is simply able to care about the rights of other people, not just his own self interests. Does he need to be a woman of childbearing age in order to care about reproductive rights and a woman's right to choose what's right for her own body/life? I say kudos to him for actually being passionate about an issue that doesn't impact him directly. As far as "illegitimate children," you seem to be conflating topics. Most women don't use abortion as some type of birth control, so having children out of wedlock is not directly correlated with being able to legally have an abortion. It is more closely related with the fact that women no longer feel like they absolutely have to get married to live a happy, productive life or even to be a mother. And they are no longer shamed into feeling horrible about themselves if they happen to get pregnant while not being married. You referred to when you grew up and your parents' generation. Women from older generations were taught as girls that their primary purpose in life was to grow up, get married, and have babies. Fortunately, many women from younger generations realize that there is more to life than being someone's wife and/or someone's mother. While some choose to have kids and raise them on their own. I hate the term "illegitimate children." The child of a single parent is no less legitimate than the child of a married couple.
I can see being concerned about reproductive rights - but not putting it at the top of the list.
When it comes to illegitimate children - there's a lot of literature out there which shows that being born illegitimate is probably the single largest factor in determining whether a kid will live in poverty down the road. Having illegitimate kids isn't exactly a harbinger of good economic things for the single mothers - and they're mostly mothers - who raise the kids either. Note that I like the word "illegitimate" because it stigmatizes the behavior of having children out of wedlock. I can't swear that stigmatizing something reduces it - but it can't hurt.
FWIW - I'm not talking about celebrities here. I'm talking about lower income women whose chances of advancing in the world are diminished/eliminated when they start having babies as unmarried teenagers. We have to do a much better job in terms of educating these girls/women how to succeed in today's economy. Robyn
You must not mix much with people from BLM or similar groups then. They don't want equality, but special treatment.
I don't see equality when a VP of a large corporation says "we must promote more women and minorities". This pretty much tells me she would give people preference based on their race and gender, not on their merit. And I saw it happening in the workplace time after time after time - "the next promotion must be a woman or a minority". This is fundamentally unfair, racist and sexist.
I also don't see equality in Affirmative Action. It's the program designed to help some groups of people by holding back others. It's especially unfair and unethical because it looks at the race rather than economics, so a middle-class Black or Hispanic applicant has better chances than a poor White or Asian one. I'd rather they spent the money and effort on improving education system in the poor areas, regardless of the racial makeup, and made all college admissions anonymous with no race of the applicant mentioned. You don't fix one wrong by creating another.
The Jews and the Asians were marginalized groups, underprivileged and discriminated against (the Chinese in the late XIX century America were for all practical purposes slaves) and they still achieved remarkable results without any special laws protecting them.
I don't want to come out of top because of my skin color or heritage. I just don't want to be held back to make space for someone else. Let the best student / worker / entrepreneur win, regardless of their race or gender.
When is the last time you went to a BLM group meeting? You say you want that but do you know that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, others practice reverse discrimination by restricting the Asian/Indian student intake? When your (white) kid can't get into state university because all slots are taken by overachieving Asians and Indians will you be happy ?
What about all the times you GOT the job because you weren't a minority ? What about the bank loans you got, the attention you receive every time you walk in a department store, the encounters with the police that were no big deal ? Never thought about those ?
I don't advocate AA as a panacea but there is no question that the would we live in is full of daily discrimination; all you have to do is be a regular reader of this forum to see that. Your rant just sounds like you are looking for someone (who doesn't look like you) to blame for your problems.
When is the last time you went to a BLM group meeting? You say you want that but do you know that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, others practice reverse discrimination by restricting the Asian/Indian student intake? When your (white) kid can't get into state university because all slots are taken by overachieving Asians and Indians will you be happy ?
What about all the times you GOT the job because you weren't a minority ? What about the bank loans you got, the attention you receive every time you walk in a department store, the encounters with the police that were no big deal ? Never thought about those ?
I don't advocate AA as a panacea but there is no question that the would we live in is full of daily discrimination; all you have to do is be a regular reader of this forum to see that. Your rant just sounds like you are looking for someone (who doesn't look like you) to blame for your problems.
1) if some kids perform better than other kids, and better meet the college requirements, they should get better spots. Asian or not, mine or others. Right now, my kids are near the top of the class, because my wife and I spend extra time every evening to make sure they keep up, and raised them to be good students and care about their grades. It is a tiring and never ending process, but it pays off. If some other parents are unwilling or unable to put that effort in, too bad. If other kids and their parents are better at it, great. They still have a life and plenty of toys, they just work super hard. Everyone can do it, but not everyone does.
2) I got what I got by studying hard in college, getting into a dual Masters program, working overtime (10 hours every day, 4 hours Sarurday) for 6 years while attending an engineering college three times a week. While other people of my age were busy partying. I then spent a large part of my late 20s and 30s traveling, sometimes for months at a time, working on highly stressful projects, often in ****ty places. Anyone willing to put that kind of effort in would get the same jobs I did, I worked with people of all races, colors, and origins.
3) I got bank loans because I had good credit history - carefully built from scratch - and never carried a loan I couldn't afford. Even if it meant driving an old clunker for a few years, or postponing the house purchase until I had 20% to put down. We shared a rented home with another young family for four years (no kids then), still are great friends with them. This allowed me to buy a decent house the year before my wife graduated from her school. Don't see too many younger people doing this nowadays.
So, stop whining.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 11-18-2016 at 08:33 AM..
1) if some kids perform better than other kids, and better meet the college requirements, they should get better spots. Asian or not, mine or others. Right now, my kids are near the top of the class, because my wife and I spend extra time every evening to make sure they keep up, and raised them to be good students and care about their grades. It is a tiring and never ending process, but it pays off. If some other parents are unwilling or unable to put that effort in, too bad. If other kids and their parents are better at it, great. They still have a life and plenty of toys, they just work super hard. Everyone can do it, but not everyone does.
2) I got what I got by studying hard in college, getting into a dual Masters program, working overtime (10 hours every day, 4 hours Sarurday) for 6 years while attending an engineering college three times a week. While other people of my age were busy partying. I then spent a large part of my late 20s and 30s traveling, sometimes for months at a time, working on highly stressful projects, often in ****ty places. Anyone willing to put that kind of effort in would get the same jobs I did, I worked with people of all races, colors, and origins.
3) I got bank loans because I had good credit history - carefully built from scratch - and never carried a loan I couldn't afford. Even if it meant driving an old clunker for a few years, or postponing the house purchase until I had 20% to put down. We shared a rented home with another young family for four years (no kids then), still are great friends with them. This allowed me to buy a decent house the year before my wife graduated from her school. Don't see too many younger people doing this nowadays.
So, stop whining.
Whining is in the eyes of the beholder. Many would read your succession of posts and say you are whining.
if some kids perform better than other kids, and better meet the college requirements, they should get better spots.
I have had to deal with this over and over in diversity meetings. Here is the bottom line -- you cannot put an overlay of meritocracy on top of a foundation that is deeply flawed and scarred by racism, sexism, and so forth. All you will get back is an echo of that underlying imbalance. If we believe in excellence or equality or even just fair play, we will have to do more to root out the underlying problems themselves.
I have had to deal with this over and over in diversity meetings. Here is the bottom line -- you cannot put an overlay of meritocracy on top of a foundation that is deeply flawed and scarred by racism, sexism, and so forth. All you will get back is an echo of that underlying imbalance. If we believe in excellence or equality or even just fair play, we will have to do more to root out the underlying problems themselves.
Believing in a meritocracy is about the same thing as believing that the good guys always win. It's a nice fantasy.
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