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I am still trying to figure out what the point of this thread really is, so I hope you will pardon me if I misinterpret. Are you asking about what our voting experience was like this election? I will answer that first just in case that was all you wanted - and you can disregard all my comments beyond that if not they are not what you wished to discuss, OP.
My actual voting experience was calm, relatively quick and, for the most part, very reassuring. My polling place was also at a local church. Aside from the fact that it was not well chosen in terms of being able to turn into it without holding traffic on our two lane road up in either direction till it piled up for a mile down the road, it was a fine location. The line was relatively short and everyone was pleasant, smiling and chatting - but not about politics. There were several mothers with younger kids in tow but the line was short so no one was moved to the front. I was in and out in less than 20 minutes I think.
Only 2 things really stand out. I was told in no uncertain terms (with actions to support that - hand over the eyes, turning away) that I could absolutely NOT show my picture ID - not just that it was not required, but that they refused to look at it when presented. That seems very odd to me but it is what it is.
And the second was that I had a nice conversation with the lady manning the machine that takes the ballots after you fill them in. She, as I am, was concerned about the fact that so many votes could potentially be cast by dead people in this state (and she had a reason to be since she told me she acted as a registrar at one time and knew the list was very long, had tried to correct that in her district and had been told there was nothing that the elections office could or would do about it - something I was already aware of having had to do a lot of extra legwork a few years ago when my husband died to have his name removed from the voters list - and in fact I did find out this time that his name is STILL there - but there is a notation beside it that says .. no ballot .. I am told. I don't quite understand why they put those names there I gather in perpetuity but I am reassured that, in theory, no one could vote in his place).
At any rate, I have no idea who the people in the polling station when I was there voted for. They possibly all voted Democrat (apparently the majority in this area did) but they all seemed like nice people and I am sure they were.
Any of my concerns about this whole election cycle have nothing to do with the average person on the street. I learned the hard way years ago (at the time of Obama's first election) that one should not talk about politics for the most part any more (at least in person), especially with anyone (and that includes relatives) who is too young to know better, or too old to care and/or is stuck in their ways and refuse to do anything but 're-vote' elections from 40 years ago (along party lines) without having any new information as to what or how anything has changed. That being the case, most of us seem to just talk amongst ourselves (those we know are of like mind) - which for the most part means that we only reinforce our views and do not expand them.
That said, I have been accosted a number of times, particularly in the past couple of years, on the street by strangers who have accused me of being all sorts of things that I know with certainty I never have been, do not want to be, will never be - without even so much as an introduction and a Hello first. My impression is that they are just angry at all the time at something I had nothing to do with so they are lashing out at anyone they can who may seem at all vulnerable. Apparently this little old white lady fits that description.
I don't see that approach as productive or friendly and I can tell you it put me on edge. They don't intimidate me however. Nor do they inflame me. They just make me feel sorry for them, and sad that our world has become so dishevelled that 'politeness' and 'respect' seem to have gone right out the window. I was not taught, nor did I teach my children, that approach to getting one's way or convincing anyone else that your viewpoint may have some validity to it is constructive or useful. I do not accost people on the street, label them derogatorily and tell them they are wrong when I don't even know their views or their names. At any rate, unfortunately the fact that that approach to change seems somehow ok with many does not give me hope that bullying is going to go out of style any time soon.
Unfortunately too I see that this 'attitude' seems to have wrought at least 2 distinct issues right now, post election. We seem to have a boatload of people suddenly requiring psychological attention (I do hope they get it and that they have healthcare benefits that will help them pay for it) since they cannot stop snivelling and whining and they seem to feel we have totally destroyed not only their lives but their right to safe spaces in which to cry and hug and tell each other that the world has ended.
Too many of those who are not crying though seem to be listening to the paid protesters who say that the way to get your way is by having a tantrum, even if in that anger they hurt each other and destroy property of like-minded individuals. And all this before any of us have a clue what the next 4 or more years will be like. Sounds pretty dumb to me but hey, I am not their mother and I didn't raise these kids - but I will do my best to stay away from them and their ilk. Self-preservation, not politics, is the reason for that avoidance technique I am employing when it comes to that group. If they bring a knife to the fight, I won't bring a gun. I will stay well out of their way and let them destroy each other, not me. I will go 'low' but not in the way they want to think. I am not the cause of their problems and I am certainly not going to start being so now.
I am also however sure that there are many more with whom I might disagree when it comes to politics, etc., but who are just very nice people with different opinions and a different basis on which to make those opinions, who have or will soon just accept the inevitable as many of us did when Obama was elected and get on with their lives - quietly and maybe with some resolve to make the best of it while working to see that their particular interests are still pursued and to next time put up a candidate who will better represent them.
The media (and the school systems) have a lot of culpability in this mess ... the media and a mess of corrupt people who have engaged their services to outrage everyone - and the school systems which have done their best to ensure that children are unthinking little entitled robots who spout mantras without real thought or experience behind them - and who are happy to dish it out but don't have a clue about how to receive it. More importantly, they refuse to listen and think about any opposing viewpoint at all. That whole 'it takes a village' thing was grossly misinterpreted in my humble opinion - this was the result of a giant social experiment and frankly, it has failed to produce results that are helping anyone. The victims of all this are now acting out because they just can't understand what happened and why. Yes, I am truly sad for them because they were not given the skills or practice to be able to reason it all out .. but, just as you cannot help an alcoholic till they come to the realization that they are the only ones who can fix themselves, so we cannot help them either. For the most part I think we just have to let this all play out - and stay out of the way while it does.
That said, I think it is in the interests of EVERYONE to do their best to boycott the efforts, particularly those of the media, to divide us for their own personal gain. And we should demand real journalism - a reporting of FACTS only - not what passes for that these days where editorial is primarily what is transmitted to the public.
.....the Bushes and Gores have a family tradition spanning several generations; also Howard Baker, who was related by marriage to Sen. Everett Dirksen -- a gentleman among statesmen, if ever there was one!
There are many other family names that you could add. It seems that the days of Everett Dirksen, Adlai Stevenson, Fulbright, Mansfield, Javits, Hatfield, McCormack, Rayburn are gone (you can add to this list)and we are left with pygmies in congress. People clamor for term limits and some states have enacted limits but that isn't the way to improve government. We only get one-trick-ponies and ideologues -- statecraft is a lost art. There is a thin line between wider participation and good governance. A close look at state legislatures would bring us to despair and these are the people we have on the horizon as members of Congress. I, too, recall the 1956 election -- I was older and wiser by one year. I suspect we were on opposite sides then and may be to this day. But there was an expectation and an attitude of compromise and loyal opposition back in the day that has not materialized in recent decades. It was with us not all that long ago and maybe we can recapture it sometime in the future...but I don't expect it right away.
(snip)
My only real wish here -- far more important than the contention over single candidates or issues, is that the people exercising their voting privilege to the fullest extent for the first time in this Presidential year will, till they've been through as many campaigns as I have, recall it as a time when most of us kept our passions under control and practiced the art of statecraft in a responsible manner.
The leader sets the tone. Here's the tone of this leader:
"I moved on her...I did try and f*k her. She was married....I grab 'em by the p*y...I just walk up to 'em and start kissin' 'em..."
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” (I know he was speaking of illegal immigrants, but that's not what he said.)
"F**k" (in campaign rallies)
"sh*t" (in campaign rallies)
"send 'em out on a stretcher" (about protesters at his rally)
"In the good old days they treated them (protesters) very very rough. And when they protested once, they would not do it again so easily." (at a rally)
"I'd like to punch him in the face." (at a rally)
"You oughtta see this guy..."Uh, I don't know what I said, I don't remember!"" (at a speech, imitating a reporter with an arm and hand disability, Trump imitating both the arms & hands and face)
"He's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I prefer the ones who didn't get caught" (about John McCain)
"She's a lightweight She's got blood coming out of her wherever" (about Meghan Kelly)
"Miss Piggy" (about a woman)
"Miss Housekeeping" (about a hispanic woman)
"Bimbo" (Meghan Kelly)
"She's a Zippo." (Meghan Kelly)
"Boycott Meghan Kelly. We can gut her." (Trump's campaign manager on Twitter)
“You really want to know what I consider ideal company?,” Trump replied. “A total piece of ass.” (an interview)
Great leaders bring out the best in those they lead. They bring people up, make them hopeful and feel better about things and themselves. Leaders set the tone in a country, just like the leader sets the tone in a company. Tax cuts don't trickle down, but tone certainly does.
I hope things get better. They will on the left. I am concerned, though, that Trump has made the worst among us feel justified in their feelings of bigotry, misogyny, and superiority.
I am still trying to figure out what the point of this thread really is, so I hope you will pardon me if I misinterpret. Are you asking about what our voting experience was like this election? I will answer that first just in case that was all you wanted - and you can disregard all my comments beyond that if not they are not what you wished to discuss, OP.
Let me try to express it another way: the country remains polarized. but if we look more closely along traditional "ideological" lines, A Trump / Johnson / McMullen coalition outpolls a Clinton / Stein coalition by a couple of percentage points; Clinton is not going to get the 50.00000001% total which would constitute a simple, absolute majority, and I doubt that many voters in one of the two "camps" would switch to the opposite side.
Another point here is that the basic orientation of the two "camps" is very hard to reconcile; Robert Kennedy once said that he "saw things that never were and asked 'Why Not' "; the progressives / liberals seek to harness the "right to coerce" vested in the nation-state to push an agenda; the conservatives / libertarians fear abuse of that power, and seek to prevent its growth, and in some cases, defend religious or nationalistic absolutes to which they subscribe.
Both "camps" have a minority component within their ranks focused on ideology (intended example; the Christian Right vs. strong feminists and LGBT's). But beyond that, both have a larger component focused on what cold be called day-to-day issues --the moderate left draws heavily from blue-collar labor, the moderate right from small businessmen and people still partially connected to agriculture -- a link which is stronger outside the large cosmopolitan cities than most urbanites recognize.
Somehow, the system still works for most of us. We have jobs, or retirement income, and when a relatively "new" issue (over a longer time horizon -- I'm thinking of environmentalism here) it gradually works its way upward, and the more immediate concerns are addressed.
Only rarely, and I'm going to cite the "peculiar institution" of slavery at the biggest, and most painful example, does the conflict intensify to the point where it can't be resolved peacefully. and in an emerging world in which the number of tested democracies are growing, a "friendly divorce" as in the case of the former Czechoslovakia, or the possibility of Quebec leaving Canada is a better answer.
We're still a long way from that disheartening scenario, and I think we moved slightly further away from it on Tuesday. But the basic resentments and fears remain on both sides, and I don't know how to mitigate them.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-12-2016 at 11:39 AM..
In a nutshell, the Trump victory was, and will remain, as a Republican victory, period. I've said as much in previous posts here, Trump is incidental to the Republican agenda. The protesting as I see it, has more to do with most knowing the consequences of the pent up Republican initiatives a' la Mike Pence, Newt Gingrich, and other extremist types decrying big government whilst using government power to purvey their personal values as law.
Form a personal standpoint I didn't want either candidate in office, and, I don't support either party at this point. I think there are many who feel this way, and it is in that vein that we have been divided not in two halves, but moreover, many camps of people who really can't agree on the core issues that both parties conveniently ignored, with the exception of tough talking rhetoric on the part of Trump.
Empty: that's the term that really describes the two parties when viewing their notions of democracy. Instead of real issues being tackled we get the canned approach to politics that emanates from bluster radio shows deciding what the issues are, and then we vote for candidates on the basis of how they will respond to those issues. Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O' Reilly, and a host of other right wing characters laid out the agenda many years ago, we were left to await the coming of their messiah, well, he's here, and the fears for our liberties are not brought by Trump as much they are in the right wing agenda arisen.
Illegal laborers in America have become a scapegoat for the fact of jobs being supplanted by the advent of machine processing. NAFTA is upon us now and so is the globalist agenda, promising the return to a pre NAFTA economy only fools the fools but it sounds good. Guns, abortion, gay marriage, all non issues for those who have become permanently economically marginalized and see little hope for real change in their future. Bankers control our economy not politicians.
In fact the pols are most often found dancing to the bankers tune, and all too often to the detriment of the rest of us. Both parties are to blame for our economic meltdown but they insist it was "the other guys fault," and further, they have little to fear from the prospect of doing it all over again. The notions of PC being a national problem is just one example of how media presents the worker as more concerned with that than he is with eating or having a roof over his head, shows the power of media and little else.
The Democrats lost a large sector of their loyalists in the agricultural mid west, and, the working class felt betrayed by the Dems, they grew tired of being asked to pick up the tab for all the social engineering brought by both parties policy wonks. So, they bought into the Trump promises of him being independent of either party. and now, once again, we will see a politician stack the deck with old line party loyalists all the while laughing at those who really thought a politician would/could save them, the sad thing is, the joke is on us all for even thinking that this election could alter the forces that brought us to this point..
As for bpollen's argument, it conveniently overlooks the point that the entire "progressive" coalition is willing to overlook the commonly-held delusion among many in the ranks of the lesser-educated Left that the nation's wealth is represented not by the equity of enterprises large and small -- but sits in vaults somewhere, ripe for "redistribution". I'm sure that Obama, the Clintons, and Sanders all understand this, but they have nothing to gain by educating "the troops".
Trump, in his own way, simply gave the over-simplifiers and stereotypers at the center of the Democratic Party a taste of their own medicine. Not many of us want to admit that there is a component of vulgarity within the ranks on both sides of the ideological divide, and when that behavior intensifies, there's less room for sensible realpolitik.
I'm what I like to think of as a moderate and have felt for a long time there is no voice speaking for me. So all this division is very frustrating for me. I prefer that people solve their problems in a peaceful and respectful manner.
What stung the most for me this election year was reading the conversations on Facebook of some of my younger friends. These are good, educated professional women who are, I think, too old to be dramatizing their agonizing emotional pain at the results of the election. Surprised me.
One, who I hold very dear, made despairing comments about her sudden realization that at least half the population were hateful and prejudiced. Preferring any political party rarely means one subscribes to everything the leaders do and say. I didn't enter the conversation but there were a few things I wanted to say.
One is that she doesn't realize that there are so many of us is because the greater majority of us aren't what her party has painted us to be. We are really not much different than they. We care about hunger, respect, the environment and health. It's just that we have some different ideas for solving the problems. She's been looking for monsters. No wonder she didn't see us all!
The other thought is that it should be beginning to dawn on them that someone is lying to them. They are so thoroughly shocked because they were fed false election statistics to influence them and reinforce what they wanted to believe. Maybe it's time to start questioning their assumptions based on the party line?
We have millions of undocumented voters. How do we know that it was even American citizens voting for Hillary?
We on the "other side" have been unhappy for nearly fifty years with many Democat policies. Instead of producing a better America we have violence in the streets, we're hopelessly in debt and our foreign policy is shredded nearly beyond repair. I hesitate to talk about the increased corruption because I'm unsure the Republicans are any more principled these days. Deception is like a pervasive virus which has enveloped our whole society.
Until the last fifteen years or so it was the odd bird who discarded a friend because of their beliefs but that has become de rigueur it seems. I mourn our sense of community and cooperation.
I opened the newspaper yesterday and front page news was that a Trump supporter had pushed a Hillary supporter down to the sidewalk at the school bus yesterday. A childhood spat (no serious injuries) front page news! Oh please.
But I've never read a word about all the Trump supporters who were being brutalized all over the U.S. for wearing the wrong hat. It looks like the press will continue the effort to paint us all as monsters.
What about all the destructive and violent riots taking place right now? Not a word. Please don't trust the conventional press to give you the full picture of trends in behavior. What these people are doing is destroying, not building. Why would any sane person support that?
I wouldn't fuss too much about the gloating. Some people just have to do it. They aren't fully mature. And lord knows we heard plenty of it also when Obama was elected. It's just a thing.
As for bpollen's argument, it conveniently overlooks the point that the entire "progressive" coalition is willing to overlook the commonly-held delusion among many in the ranks of the lesser-educated Left that the nation's wealth is represented not by the equity of enterprises large and small -- but sits in vaults somewhere, ripe for "redistribution". I'm sure that Obama, the Clintons, and Sanders all understand this, but they have nothing to gain by educating "the troops".
Trump, in his own way, simply gave the over-simplifiers and stereotypers at the center of the Democratic Party a taste of their own medicine. Not many of us want to admit that there is a component of vulgarity within the ranks on both sides of the ideological divide, and when that behavior intensifies, there's less room for sensible realpolitik.
No, there are no quotes by Obama about how he can grab P*y because he's famous, or calling a woman a "bimbo" or "Miss Piggy." Or banning an entire religion from coming into the U.S.
Trump was unintentionally and intentionally, in some cases, appealing to the racist among us. He can't really ban all Muslims. We all know that. But he was appealing to the anti-Muslim crowd so they'd vote for him. He didn't care if it raised the possibility of violence against American Muslims.
What was the deal of criticizing the fallen American Muslim soldier and his family? What was that all about? Bizarre. Who does that? Someone who wants to appeal to the anti-Muslim crowd.
No, this is not like other elections. This guy is different. And not in a good way. Economically, it might turn out fine. But he appeals to the worst among us, and that's not good.
I say that as a Clinton supporter, but an Independent who didn't like either candidate. I even voted for Trump in the primary. But then I saw that the man is unfit for office. There's no way I could vote for someone who behaves like him, encourages violence and racism. No way. He's pretending to be one of the guys, but he's not. He's as far away as you can get.
The point is we weren't given a choice of an upright candidate. If you have done your research and can be honest with yourself and others you will know that.
The slaughter at Benghazi and deceptive cover-up along with the unethical and frightening overseas financial deals were the clincher for me.
As a women I know how to handle a crude-mouthed man. And there are plenty of them. But I can't do anything about a leader who may sell out the country. In one I get hurt, dust myself off. In the other we all get hurt.
I believe that Obama's and the Democratic party's position on pretty much every economic issue, foreign policy issue, and on basic Constitutional rights has been wrong. Yet to state that brings cries of "racist hater" from the left.
It might not have brought such criticism had you been able to present any other rational explanation for opposition to these policies. Suggestions of racism become perfectly reasonable when no other explanation is put forward or can be found for vitriolic denunciations and excoriations that eschew any form of factual or rationally analytical basis.
It might have helped your credibility as well to have denounced at least once or twice the plain, overt, and in-your-face racism and xenophobic hysteria that have gone on for years on the right-wing and in so much of right-wing media. But we don't see or hear that. This naturally makes us suspicious. And perhass a bit jaded and unsympathetic to crocodile tears appeals to come together and work for a better America. You made your beds for ten years, and now you are unwilling to lie in them for ten minutes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff
In fact I believe that is the fundamental reason our Congress has been unable to move forward for the last eight years -- because any disagreement results in that response.
Partisan obstructionism. Deliberate and calculated. That's what it's all been about. You an take it back to Trent Lott in April 2007 when he said that...
"The strategy of being obstructionist can work or fail. For Daschle, it failed. For Reid, it succeeded, and so far it's working for us."
Republicans have never let go of it since. End of story.
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