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Old 11-11-2016, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,383 posts, read 6,794,913 times
Reputation: 14439

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As a conservative, but one who (I hope) can be viewed as one who tries to formulate his beliefs on principles and standards rather than personalities, I cannot help but take a substantial degree of satisfaction from this week's election. More than just about anything, I'm gad to see the mud-slinging and exchange of blame come to an end, but I cannot abandon my conviction that the relatively new phenomenon called Political Correctness represented a new, unsuccessful, and hopefully final assault on the concept of Constitutional principle and consistency.

I'm well aware that there are any number of posters here on the opposite side from myself on many of the issues which divide us who consistently post with dignity and respect -- we all backslide a little now and then, but GregW, Ruth4Truth, and ClarkPark come immediately to mind, and I'm sure that a little more study and intelligent discourse would turn up many more. But unfortunately, there have always been any number of people here, on both sides, who post primarily to divide and incite; I won't, of course, stoop to naming names.

We have just witnessed one of the most divisive, but also the most pivotal Presidential campaigns in our history. In my own lifetime, 1992 and 1980 come close, but you have to go all the way back to 1932 to find an occasion upon which America's two major parties so totally "shot the works". And while the concept might have been slightly tarnished in recent years, a salient principle of American statecraft remains that while you seek to land a knockout punch to your opponent -- you don't kick or stomp him while he's down there on the canvas.

My personal conviction remains that the strategy at the highest levels of the Democratic Party was to use a combination of several points of economic naivete' on the part of both the recent immigrants and better-educated, but less street-wise young voters to paint as unflattering a picture as possible on all of its opposition, and then to consolidate its power and move us further toward every party hack's fantasy of a one-party state -- but it didn't work.

On Tuesday morning I stood in line for nearly an hour in order to vote in a small community in rural upstate Pennsylvania. The woman immediately in front of me brought her toddler daughter along, and a lady I like to think of as my "substitute kid" asked if her 12-year old son could stand in the rear and watch (granted, so long as he remained respectful and quiet which, of course. he did).

Despite the tendency to oversimplify and polarize, we can be grateful that at this time we are not involved in foreign tensions on a level with the Cold War, or recovering from a major economic shock. We need to recognize that a mature, increasingly-post-industrial economy relies upon a pool of cash that can be slowly and steadily repurposed, but not seized and redistributed by whim and fiat, and that as other nations continue to match our success as "a rising tide lifts all boats", finding a way to compensate our less-gifted citizens for taking on the really-unwanted tasks is likely to become more of a problem.

My only real wish here -- far more important than the contention over single candidates or issues, is that the people exercising their voting privilege to the fullest extent for the first time in this Presidential year will, till they've been through as many campaigns as I have, recall it as a time when most of us kept our passions under control and practiced the art of statecraft in a responsible manner.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-11-2016 at 08:23 PM..

 
Old 11-11-2016, 08:58 PM
 
9,822 posts, read 13,910,287 times
Reputation: 10708
You remember 1932 elections?
 
Old 11-11-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
4,001 posts, read 1,780,161 times
Reputation: 13794
I hope that what you are hoping for happens. I have teenagers who are shocked & confused at what they are seeing/hearing & reading.

I didn't see this coming & had no way to prepare them for how they would see American adults act.

I'm at a loss as to how to explain the pure nastiness. I'm 48; I've never seen anything like this; grown-ups did not act like this when my parents took us to observe the process.

Not to mention that alot of hate is being directed right now towards people who held similar views & values as their mom does.

They know I'm not uneducated, or racist, or a bully. But "people like me" are being called just that. I have faith in my kids; I don't think I raised any fools but they are teenagers & they are watching us.

ALL the children are watching us.
 
Old 11-11-2016, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,383 posts, read 6,794,913 times
Reputation: 14439
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
You remember 1932 elections?
Sorry if my poor choice of syntax gave that impression.

But I do come from a family that lives and breathes politics and statecraft, and one of my earliest memories is of being allowed to stay up for a little to watch the results of the 1956 Presidential election; I was seven years old at the time.

My point was that no other election comes close to matching 1932 as a quantum shift. My grandfather lived to the age of 90, in 1975, and he also had a few tales to tell about that. And the Bushes and Gores have a family tradition spanning several generations; also Howard Baker, who was related by marriage to Sen. Everett Dirksen -- a gentleman among statesmen, if ever there was one!

Besides, it's going to be a while before the full impact of this week is apparent; I tend to think that part of Trump was, and is an act, and that he's going to shift gears pretty quickly now that the election is settled.

But let's hope we can get a few more people into this thread for a respectful exchange of opinion.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-11-2016 at 09:37 PM..
 
Old 11-11-2016, 11:42 PM
 
2,813 posts, read 1,398,985 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
But let's hope we can get a few more people into this thread for a respectful exchange of opinion.
Interestingly, over the past 8-9 years, I have found those on the "right side of the aisle" to frequently engage in mud-slinging, divisiveness, conspiracy theory, and more flat out racism than I previously thought existed. Just a brief look on this very website at the names used to describe the Obama family...I didn't need Trump to confirm there's a lot of racism in America. I've learned that for a fact well before he started joining in the "birther" and "in cahoots with terrorists" nonsense.

And honestly, for me, it has very very little to do with R vs D. I consider myself an independent and have voted and even campaigned for candidates of both parties and 3rd party candidates. I was not a Hillary supporter. No, why I will not "give him a chance" or "come together" or acquiesce to any other condescending request from Trump or his supporters is because I have watched their behavior for the past 8 years, I have heard their racist comments when they thought they were "safe" to express them, and most importantly I have seen and heard Donald Trump's actions, and words, and behavior my entire life. And I don't think he's a good or honorable or kind or respectable man. He does not meet my standards. His own words and actions are enough for me to know this is not someone who will win my respect, nor be held up as a leader or a role model for my family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
As a conservative, but one who (I hope) can be viewed as one who tries to formulate his beliefs on principles and standards rather than personalities, I cannot help but take a substantial degree of satisfaction from this week's election. More than just about anything, I'm gad to see the mud-slinging and exchange of blame come to an end, but I cannot abandon my conviction that the relatively new phenomenon called Political Correctness represented a new, unsuccessful, and hopefully final assault on the concept of Constitutional principle and consistency.

I'm well aware that there are any number of posters here on the opposite side from myself on many of the issues which divide us who consistently post with dignity and respect -- we all backslide a little now and then, but GregW, Ruth4Truth, and ClarkPark come immediately to mind, and I'm sure that a little more study and intelligent discourse would turn up many more. But unfortunately, there have always been any number of people here, on both sides, who post primarily to divide and incite; I won't, of course, stoop to naming names.

We have just witnessed one of the most divisive, but also the most pivotal Presidential campaigns in our history. In my own lifetime, 1992 and 1980 come close, but you have to go all the way back to 1932 to find an occasion upon which America's two major parties so totally "shot the works". And while the concept might have been slightly tarnished in recent years, a salient principle of American statecraft remains that while you seek to land a knockout punch to your opponent -- you don't kick or stomp him while he's down there on the canvas.

My personal conviction remains that the strategy at the highest levels of the Democratic Party was to use a combination of several points of economic naivete' on the part of both the recent immigrants and better-educated, but less street-wise young voters to paint as unflattering a picture as possible on all of its opposition, and then to consolidate its power and move us further toward every party hack's fantasy of a one-party state -- but it didn't work.

On Tuesday morning I stood in line for nearly an hour in order to vote in a small community in rural upstate Pennsylvania. The woman immediately in front of me brought her toddler daughter along, and a lady I like to think of as my "substitute kid" asked if her 12-year old son could stand in the rear and watch (granted, so long as he remained respectful and quiet which, of course. he did).

Despite the tendency to oversimplify and polarize, we can be grateful that at this time we are not involved in foreign tensions on a level with the Cold War, or recovering from a major economic shock. We need to recognize that a mature, increasingly-post-industrial economy relies upon a pool of cash that can be slowly and steadily repurposed, but not seized and redistributed by whim and fiat, and that as other nations continue to match our success as "a rising tide lifts all boats", finding a way to compensate our less-gifted citizens for taking on the really-unwanted tasks is likely to become more of a problem.

My only real wish here -- far more important than the contention over single candidates or issues, is that the people exercising their voting privilege to the fullest extent for the first time in this Presidential year will, till they've been through as many campaigns as I have, recall it as a time when most of us kept our passions under control and practiced the art of statecraft in a responsible manner.
But you started your 3rd paragraph by calling it one of the most divisive elections. Do you think people have kept their passions under control? I saw a lot of irresponsibly and very little in the way of statecraft. I don't predict many people looking back and saying, "boy, did everybody act thoughtfully and respectfully in 2016!"

And do you not see how the bolded bits in your post add to the problem of "divide and incite" rather than seek common ground? Remember more people voted against Trump than for him. I don't think referring to those voters as naive, and discussing taxes with words like "seized" "whim" "and "fiat" is going to bring anyone to the table for civil discourse.
 
Old 11-12-2016, 07:53 AM
 
9,822 posts, read 13,910,287 times
Reputation: 10708
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
Sorry if my poor choice of syntax gave that impression.

But I do come from a family that lives and breathes politics and statecraft, and one of my earliest memories is of being allowed to stay up for a little to watch the results of the 1956 Presidential election; I was seven years old at the time.

My point was that no other election comes close to matching 1932 as a quantum shift. My grandfather lived to the age of 90, in 1975, and he also had a few tales to tell about that. And the Bushes and Gores have a family tradition spanning several generations; also Howard Baker, who was related by marriage to Sen. Everett Dirksen -- a gentleman among statesmen, if ever there was one!

Besides, it's going to be a while before the full impact of this week is apparent; I tend to think that part of Trump was, and is an act, and that he's going to shift gears pretty quickly now that the election is settled.

But let's hope we can get a few more people into this thread for a respectful exchange of opinion.

There was nothing disrespectful. You agreed that some of your post eluded to possibility of being consciously alive, to make real life participant judgement, about 1932 elections. I have several closing on 100 yrs patients. Nothing unusual.
Unfortunately, not being a participant, makes me to believe that you rely on other people opinions to form your own. Also, on media to shape it for you. Forgetting very simple truth - memory is deceiving and truth is what benefits me/us, not what really happened.
I follow ancient path. Ehi passico. Come and see. See for your own and listen to your own voice of common sense. This is why I am absolutely not interested in politics as from what I saw and witnessed through my 62 years of life, I shall not trust them to give me a cup of water, least to say, rule my life.
So to each of his own. You live in your world, created by your opinions, formed by others. They are nothing but opinions and your world is nothing but opinion. So is mine, of course.
Somewhere deep inside of you, though, there is a little voice, called doubt. Even if you deny it, don't hear it, never had it - it's there. It's a whisper of a wind. A churn in a stomach once in a while. As, otherwise, you wouldn't have gone to extent of placing such an eloquent opinionated post as by very basic psychology, all you are doing is seeking support to your opinions - and silencing that faint voice of doubt.
I am very sorry that you will be disappointed again. As you will. As the real world is so much far far away from your opinion and, honestly, does not give about it. You did your part. Your brought your gifts, in whatever form, to the altar. Now sit and watch, what happens next.

Be well.
 
Old 11-12-2016, 08:19 AM
 
5,761 posts, read 3,043,495 times
Reputation: 15097
I am another who has been frustrated, to say the least, that any disagreement has been met with screams of "racist" or "bigot" or "hater." It is the constant use of those words to shut down any discussion that has led to where we are today. I believe that Obama's and the Democratic party's position on pretty much every economic issue, foreign policy issue, and on basic Constitutional rights has been wrong. Yet to state that brings cries of "racist hater" from the left. In fact I believe that is the fundamental reason our Congress has been unable to move forward for the last eight years -- because any disagreement results in that response.


Just like I doubt this thread will be able to last long for the same reason. I agree with you.
 
Old 11-12-2016, 08:42 AM
 
Location: N of citrus, S of decent corn
34,575 posts, read 42,741,316 times
Reputation: 57252
I was very heartened by the election experience, like OP. We waited in line for almost two hours, outside a church voting place on a lovely sunny day. We are near a military base, so we happened to get a free air show to help pass the time. Everyone was in a good mood. The elderly, handicapped, or those with babies in tow got moved to the front of the line, and nobody minded.

We were worried that our candidate might lose, but he did not. The only sour note in the election experience was the crass behavior of a few relatives who supported Hillary. I am truly shocked at the way they complained that Trump supporters were gloating (which I didn't see), and they are still regurgitating hateful things on FB. I keep my opinion to myself, but in my heart I know that I will keep them at arms length forever after this. They have shown themselves for what they are, and it isn't good.
 
Old 11-12-2016, 09:49 AM
 
4,855 posts, read 2,152,571 times
Reputation: 12348
With word coming out on the cabinet selections and which staff members are being considered, its difficult to see the entire picture. If a one party control though is any indication, this change will be for the good of the politicians. Not one of them that has accepted the offer ever said , they had the citizens in mind. They are seeing the dangling carrot.

Power corrupts absolutely.

As adults, and hopefully informed ones, it comes down to self interests. Few-are willing to come to the table and compromise. Lets have Half a Nuclear bomb, Is that compromise? Lets have half an honest politician. Is any of that compromise?

A bit off topic but I thought the other day....How one of the first ladies platform was to "say No to drugs". And years later, we pass MJ. Because:golly, its an industry! Building more revenue. A foreign leader once mentioned...America will fall from within...thru drugs and violence. So far we are on target ....And that is the change that most voted in. So you ask..can we talk? And I say....can someone Listen to reason and learn from the past...There in lays the foundation ....to modify.
 
Old 11-12-2016, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Virginia
3,462 posts, read 1,645,717 times
Reputation: 9263
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlearts View Post
I was very heartened by the election experience, like OP. We waited in line for almost two hours, outside a church voting place on a lovely sunny day. We are near a military base, so we happened to get a free air show to help pass the time. Everyone was in a good mood. The elderly, handicapped, or those with babies in tow got moved to the front of the line, and nobody minded.

We were worried that our candidate might lose, but he did not. The only sour note in the election experience was the crass behavior of a few relatives who supported Hillary. I am truly shocked at the way they complained that Trump supporters were gloating (which I didn't see), and they are still regurgitating hateful things on FB. I keep my opinion to myself, but in my heart I know that I will keep them at arms length forever after this. They have shown themselves for what they are, and it isn't good.
Sorry, maybe you haven't seen Trump supporters gloating in person, but read most of the posts by Trump supporters on the Politics Forum here and you will see plenty of gloating.
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