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The "manosphere" community online likes to cling to the belief that women are against legalized prostitution because they want to control men through sex or some nonsense.
In reality, many women (even women who consider themselves feminists) would like to see prostitution legalized and regulated so that sex workers would be safer from violence, exploitation, prosecution, etc.
I am a feminist and proud of it, and I disagree with your defense of what you call "sex workers."
I resent the term "sex workers" as if it is equivalent to honorable work such as "dock workers", "steel workers," farm laborers, secretaries, etc. I think prosecution of prostitutes and their pimps is appropriate. Let them pay huge fines to get themselves out of jail, or let them just stay there (until deportation, if they are illegal aliens). Close down the "massage parlors" and illegal brothels and make it impossible for foreign pimps and prostitutes to return to the USA ever again. Ban them for life.
I am a feminist and proud of it, and I disagree with your defense of what you call "sex workers."
I resent the term "sex workers" as if it is equivalent to honorable work such as "dock workers", "steel workers," farm laborers, secretaries, etc. I think prosecution of prostitutes and their pimps is appropriate. Let them pay huge fines to get themselves out of jail, or let them just stay there (until deportation, if they are illegal aliens). Close down the "massage parlors" and illegal brothels and make it impossible for foreign pimps and prostitutes to return to the USA ever again. Ban them for life.
And what is your basis for this view, religious beliefs? Personal insecurity?
I certainly understand your feelings towards the concept of a pimp. I think back in another thread I also mentioned that I don't like the idea of street prostitution nor pimps. I'm not so sure that I like the notion that legalization and regulations results in the law being your pimp. No more than health regulations for other services such as hair salons, tattoo parlors, are any more of imposition on their employees.
I just see far more benefits to legalization and regulation than what we have currently.
(That's even before we even get into the discussion that the government has no business in what two consenting adults do sexually. )
Way too many working girls I know are made victims by the legal system that is suppose to protect them. It is far greater than 0.00001%... in my immediate circle of acquaintances/friends as well as the larger area. A channel communication that I'm a member of gets alerts quite often about potential dangerous criminal activity.
One comes to mind was a recent post from a woman who was literally bit in the face and breasts by a customer. Of course, she won't report it to the police.. she cannot... thus she is now a victim. We've also had quite a few customers and prostitutes who have been robbed. They are both easy targets. Just last week, the wife of a customer confronted the working girl in a parking lot and smashed a window and continues to harassments going on a week now.. in person, email, phone. All she can do now is change her contact info and let everyone know.
it goes on and on and on.
It is also the reason why many rely on background checking services and references from known circles of agencies and independents. Of course this isn't fool proof.. On 10/18 a message went out concerning a person using the identity of another person's identity and fake references followed by threatening a few of the ladies once they show up. Again.. all unreported to the police.
Let's not also consider those indirectly involved. There is a hotel owner in NJ that is facing promoting prostitution charge simply because he took extra tips to provide extra sheets and towels to some of the ladies. I personally got into trouble because one of my friends had previously been arrested for prostitution and I was being threaten with a promoting prostitution charge simply for her riding in my car. In reality, she wasn't working that night and a group of us were headed to a diner... I was speeding...
I really have nothing to disagree with you on your post... I just simply don't believe that the impact of the illegal status of prostitution should be downplayed... maybe its just worse were I live. Ironically, towns with higher crime rates (drugs, weapons, gangs) have police that could care less about a few working girls operating in their jurisdiction. Certainly not areas that I would recommend any working girl to operate in though.
Hmm. I believe you & have seen the problems you are speaking of. Maybe in your friends case they would benefit from legalization. I have a good idea as to why this may be happening (a few of them, actually) but won't speculate on a public forum.
I'm convinced they would not be able to operate as a private, self-employed & independent prostitute. And thats okay for many women. Those like myself; for whom it's not, would have to remain illegal.
My state has provisions for the "Escort Agency" through the Dept of Regulatory Agencies & enforced & monitored via the municipality levels. According to their standards & if those standards were to be what could be expected from legalization; I could not be approved as a legal prostitute:
" ...E. Criminal History: In addition to any other criteria contained in this General Licensing Code, the applicant's or licensee's criminal history, any conviction or guilty plea to a charge based upon acts of dishonesty, fraud, deceit, violence, weapons, substance abuse or narcotics, sexual misconduct or prostitution related misconduct of any kind, regardless of the jurisdiction in which the act was committed, may be considered in a decision to grant, renew, revoke or suspend the license. ..."
Notice the defining terms of "Felony, Misdemeanor. Petty, Traffic or even Civil" are conveniently missing. In addition:
" ... 2. General Personal History: Each applicant shall have a satisfactory general personal history. The Deputy Licensing Officer shall investigate other facts relevant to the general personal history of the applicant as necessary to fairly determine the applicant's qualifications and ability to conduct the business in a lawful manner. Relevant facts may include, but not be limited to, the applicant's criminal history, knowing or wilful deception in any phase of the application or licensing process, fraud in obtaining any license or registration, addiction to alcohol, habit forming drugs or controlled substances or complaints received by the City Clerk's Office.
B. No Obligations To City: Each applicant shall not be indebted or obligated in any manner to the City."
I don't know the hookers you know ... but this would have disqualified every single one I've ever known from operating under "legal protection".
I understand what you were dealing with during the pull-over for "speeding". Many PD's make a point of compiling data on "associates" of those suspected of criminal activity. Passengers in my vehicles had been pulled aside with the comment "You do know who she is; don't you?" (Which was funny; as despite what they thought they knew ... it didn't do them a bit of good)
Don't fall for the scare tactics; they have nothing & they know it. At the most you have been electronically flagged. You may start getting pulled over for random verbal "warnings" now. Actually; just expect it & prepare for it & you can at least get some amusement out of the fact that you remain frustratingly "clean".
Cops make for amusing clients also. They have this need for everything to be "on the table" & struggle with knowing how to say "I actually work as a cop" without it sounding like " I'm a COP". It's not like I didn't have them figured out already when they mentioned they were "A city employee"( random city employees don't actually use that phrase. Instead they say "utility department" or "parks").
We had a Motel owner who actually DID lose his establishment due to a guilty by association type occurence. The local paper did a huge multi-page article on it under the context of how difficult it was for legal immigrants to own their own buisnesses (they were Russian). The entire history of the trial was made available, including the evidence against him which was funny as they obviously didn't know the half of it.
I still felt bad for him; he wasn't any more "dirty" than those that arrested him (or the judge sitting on the bench for that matter).
I am a feminist and proud of it, and I disagree with your defense of what you call "sex workers."
I resent the term "sex workers" as if it is equivalent to honorable work such as "dock workers", "steel workers," farm laborers, secretaries, etc. I think prosecution of prostitutes and their pimps is appropriate. Let them pay huge fines to get themselves out of jail, or let them just stay there (until deportation, if they are illegal aliens). Close down the "massage parlors" and illegal brothels and make it impossible for foreign pimps and prostitutes to return to the USA ever again. Ban them for life.
One of the key components to Feminism is bodily autonomy. It is the whole basis from Roe vs Wade in regards to right to privacy and dominion over body... in particular to abortion rights.
At its core the debate over prostitution is a human rights one.
Whether or not you agree with prostitution is besides the point... No one is forcing anyone to "like it" and two consenting adults having sex doesn't impact you directly. As a feminist, you should understand that personal choice over bodily autonomy shouldn't be conditional to your own personal biases (or religious ones). To further claim that punitive actions should be taken against a woman exercising said rights is hypocritical.
Feminists of recent years have begun to develop a bad reputation... you are not doing it any favors by claiming to be a proud one.
Sex work terminology was never intended to lay claim to honorable or moral work... both of which are subjective terms. Again.. personal biases defined "honorable" and "moral" which changes from person to person. There are many undesirable jobs that people work each and every day to support themselves.... but it is a "job" and hence it is still "work". Hence the term "sex work" to emphasis that really nothing differentiates sex work from any other type of work.... that sex work is singled out due to personal biases, social stigma, and judgement.
Hmm. I believe you & have seen the problems you are speaking of. Maybe in your friends case they would benefit from legalization. I have a good idea as to why this may be happening (a few of them, actually) but won't speculate on a public forum.
I'm convinced they would not be able to operate as a private, self-employed & independent prostitute. And thats okay for many women. Those like myself; for whom it's not, would have to remain illegal.
First and foremost.. Great discussion! Thanks.
I am familiar with some of those regulations... they vary a lot state by state. They remind me of some of the discussions around leveraging pornographic shoots as a way to circumvent prostitution laws. States generally cannot eliminate the sale or production of pornographic materials. However, it doesn't mean they cannot legislate regulations and limitations that make it very difficult to impossible to obtain permits. The end result is adult book stores on the very outskirts of towns and permits to shoot/produce pornography is next to impossible.
Thus... not a practical or realistic path to circumvent prostitution laws.
The regulations you cite have the same purpose for Escort agencies. Escort Agencies are not pay for sex agencies.. but everyone knows that they are often fronts for prostitution. The regulations make it difficult for escort agencies to legally operate while still fronting prostitution.
I have no doubt that some states will have such regulations that would make it difficult to obtain a license. However, judging from what I've seen in other countries... legalization of prostitution will offer a few things.
* Means to challenge such regulations in court. If the underlying activity is legal, a case can be made they are infringing on the rights of legal work.
* Means to be privy to the same legal protections that the rest of us citizens fall under.
* Prostitutes can no longer fear prosecution or extortion when reporting other crimes.
Furthermore, I have not heard of such type of regulations in countries that are open to legal prostitution. The intent simply isn't there.... regulations and zoning . yes. From my understanding, Nevada only requires that you have not been convicted of a felony and pass health checks/tests and pay fees to work at a brothel.
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I don't know the hookers you know ... but this would have disqualified every single one I've ever known from operating under "legal protection".
Let say prostitution is legalized and prostitutes still operate without a license because they cannot qualify. They would likely see little change in day to day operation... still operating outside the law as they are now.
However there are notable difference:
* those that do qualify can operate legally without fear. My previous GF would be one example that would qualify.
* those that do not and caught are subject to civil penalties not criminal penalties. Similar to violations of health codes are never served with jail time... just escalating fines.
* since prostitution is no longer a crime, prostitutes, licensed or not, can report to the police.
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I understand what you were dealing with during the pull-over for "speeding".
....
Don't fall for the scare tactics; they have nothing & they know it.
Yeh.. I know... No matter how much I tell myself that, it never stops being a nerve-racking experience. I will never forget the cop who didn't believe me that the passenger was my GF. He proceeded to take her ID and grill me on her real name, address, birthday, etc... lol. Tell this day, we don't know what tipped him off.. she had never been arrested for prostitution but maybe on some list somewhere.
Cops and pimps are two types that most of the women I know steer clear of. Its a situation in which they feel the client has leverage and it threatens their ability to control of the situation. I know one cop in the area that does frequent prostitutes. He sticks to the local AMP in towns that are well known to tolerate their operation as long as they stay out of sight. The AMPs by the way are the biggest donors to the local police department. lol.
The motel owner here was fined in the tune of 6 digits... I feel bad for him as from what I understand, he really didn't really know or care to know. The girls all tip the housekeeping staff very very well... they are the eyes and ears of the hotel.. they are also a source of information regarding police activity in and around the hotel.
I don't think any big change will come after it is made legal (if it is made legal). Relationships in countries where it is legal aren't much different than here. People still enter exclusive relationships, get married, have kids... some men never visit brothels, etc. All that would happen are the more law abiding men who want to try it would be free to do so. But even then how many would? Here in the US it's just a $99 Southwest flight to Nevada where it's legal. But you don't see men flying/flocking there in huge numbers for prostitution.
The big changes will happen before it's legal. Think about where in the Western world prostitution is legal. It's liberal European countries (at least a lot more liberal than the US). We'd first have to move in that direction and become more socialist and a more liberal society (with less independent states rights) for prostitution to somehow become legal in all 50 states: dictated by the federal government. As the current system is now, states can make it legal if they want, but I think only one has.
Are you a female?
From a male's perspective, there comes a time when masturbation stops satisfying you. Even if you masturbate the whole day long, and can't get a hard on anymore, you still are not satisfied. You yearn for the REAL thing (been there, done that)
But a prostitute isn't the real thing! Some robotics people are trying to make a sex robot that would feel real (temperature, feels like skin, etc.) and frankly I think that's a much better idea.
But I would first suggest you try to work on yourself and determine why you don't have a real relationship with someone who wants to have an intimate relationship with you.
And what is your basis for this view, religious beliefs? Personal insecurity?
Why do you bait someone who disagrees with you with such typical nonsense as your "question about personal insecurity"? Have you nothing more intelligent to say?
I just don't want pimps and prostitutes around, and the worst (next to street walkers) are those that open up phony massage parlors in strip malls (no pun intended). I happen to require and enjoy therapeutic Swedish massages and naively went inside one of these "massage parlors" nearby once, many years ago, only to be told by the little eye-rolling ***** at the desk that "we don't take women." (Wink, wink, nod, nod.)
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