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...many of the places they go to have no real culture or history at all. Are they supposed to become Navajo Indians if they move to AZ? Loincloth Indians if they move to Florida? So much of the USA is "faked" that it's really hard to say what our common culture is. If we want to look at "Majority Culture" it certainly would be NJ, NY, California, Boston and such places since most Americans live in Metro areas.
Excellent point! "American culture", to the extent that such a thing exists, is modern pop-culture, nominally in English, with a smattering of background in British traditions of property-rights.
The question of immigrant assimilation is much more pressing and discernible, in countries like Germany or France or Japan. There, it is clear what is the underlying social-cultural-intellectual-traditional ethos that gives those various peoples their particular character. To be German, it is essential to have some familiarity with Goethe and Schiller. To be French, it is essential to be familiar with Cornielle, Voltaire, Hugo, Dumas and the like. To be American, does it matter if one is familiar with Melville, Hemingway and Twain? The average Chinese college-graduate probably has read more of these authors, than has the average American.
Arab or Indian or Korean kids swaying to modern American music, consuming McDonalds and Coke, wearing Levis jeans and watching American "football" are in some sense already assimilated into American culture. All that they lack is a passport.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,974 posts, read 25,476,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
I would like to return to the point of this thread; that the West seems bent on committing suicide by allowing, and more important subsidizing, an unlimited quantity of immigrants. If Europe didn't have cradle to grave welfare it would be a very different story. In that case the migrants would realize that they would starve on arrival. Thus, before the welfare state migrants were generally more driven and more intelligent than their hosts. Typical migrants in those days were the likes of Albert Einstein, Joseph Pulitzer and Igor Stravinsky. Even less famous migrants, upon arrival in the U.S. worked themselves to the bone by day, and attended night school to learn English.
In this day and age, Mohamed Atta of September 11 fame are more typical migrants. He sought and almost got a government grant to fly crop duster planes. I leave to the imagination the real purpose of that proposed transaction. Even less vile migrants arrive for the panoply of social benefits. The West needs people who come to better themselves and their host countries, not to destroy us.
I truly believe that immigration is and will work in the USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand but will likely fail in Europe. Europe is filled with self hatred, anti patriotism, and native fertility rates so low that it is inevitable that immigrant culture will overtake native culture at some point. Europe is made up of nation states. North America and Oceania have been assimilating immigrants for 350 years. I don't live on the US / Mexico border but where I live I've have mostly very positive relationships with immigrants from all over the world.
The rules are the same as for Section 8 (Housing Choice Vouchers) they are set by the Federal Government, not states or counties, Seattle's low income public housing is federally funded http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/672494.pdf
From the SHA website "You don't need to be a United States citizen to apply for housing, but you do need to be a citizen or have eligible immigration status to receive housing. Your eligibility will be verified at the time of admission. You could be denied all or part of your assistance if you do not have acceptable citizenship or immigration status at that time. Learn more about how immigration status affects assistance." Eligibility - Low-Income Public Housing - Seattle Housing Authority
I was not complaining about illegal immigrants in subsidized housing, I am complaining about US taxpayer funded subsidized housing going to immigrants, rather than our own citizens. Back in the 1980s, Immigrants were REQUIRED to have a sponsor before they were allowed to set foot on US soil, to prevent bringing in immigrants who would become wards of the state.
That's a good idea, and we should have that be a cornerstone of any renewed immigration policy.
The USA is actually in a great position IF our population had a lick of sense and didn't just leave the government to it's own (business and military) lobbyists.
As a relatively small population with high capabilities we could be - in effect - the "Swiss" of the world in many ways, providing high value goods and services which bring in high incomes.
But we won't do it so the entire debate is moot. We will await our ruination which may have now already occurred....because, you know, that Netflix series is just too interesting.
I remember a speaker at a Viet Nam War teach-in fifty years ago saying something to the effect that "You Americans don't understand! The reason you don't have death squads in America is they aren't needed - you willingly vote in your oppressors. If the electorate voted in politicians who helped the working class and poor, and threatened the ruling oligarchy, you'd have death squads here, too!" He didn't use that vocabulary and it took him twenty minutes to say it, but that was the gist.
I was not complaining about illegal immigrants in subsidized housing, I am complaining about US taxpayer funded subsidized housing going to immigrants, rather than our own citizens. Back in the 1980s, Immigrants were REQUIRED to have a sponsor before they were allowed to set foot on US soil, to prevent bringing in immigrants who would become wards of the state.
That's a good idea, and we should have that be a cornerstone of any renewed immigration policy.
Every refugee has a sponsor or they don't come to the US. If they don't have a citizen relative they are assigned to a relief agency, Churches play a big part in that as well as local relief agencies.
OK, thank you for clarifying. Though I agree with your ideas on no welfare and swift justice, I don't agree on open immigration. I believe that our nation's immigration system should be geared towards one thing, and one thing only: what is in the best interest of the United States. Not family reunification, not sheltering refugees from unstable countries, not increasing our diversity for its own sake. Nothing but self-interest, plain and simple.
We should be skimming the world's best and brightest, not swinging open the gates to hordes of people whose cultures are antithetical to ours. "Diversity" will take care of itself, as we selectively peel off the top scientists, doctors, philosophers, engineers, artists, etc. from Asia, Africa, Europe, and the rest of the Americas. Bring in people who want to be Americans, and who want to contribute towards this country, and most of our immigration problems will be solved.
I'm not sure if you're describing the U.S. or the Borg (depicted in the Star Trek Universe franchise).
"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
As for "self-interest", I think that needs to be defined.
I could argue, "open immigration policies are in the best interest of the U.S. in it's long-held tradition and pride for being an open society", as stated by Emma Lazarus and edified at the Statue of Liberty:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
I'm not sure if you're describing the U.S. or the Borg (depicted in the Star Trek Universe franchise).
"We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
As for "self-interest", I think that needs to be defined.
I could argue, "open immigration policies are in the best interest of the U.S. in it's long-held tradition and pride for being an open society", as stated by Emma Lazarus and edified at the Statue of Liberty:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
We can be an open society, doesn't mean we have to be suicidal. We can and should be very particular about who we allow into this country.
And basing immigration policy on a poem is well, stupid.
I could argue, "open immigration policies are in the best interest of the U.S. in it's long-held tradition and pride for being an open society", as stated by Emma Lazarus and edified at the Statue of Liberty:
“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
"There is no doubt that free and open immigration is the right policy in a libertarian state, but in a welfare state it is a different story: the supply of immigrants will become infinite. Your proposal that someone only be able to come for employment is a good one but it would not solve the problem completely. The real hitch is in denying social benefits to the immigrants who are here. That is very hard to do, much harder than you would think as we have found out in California."
-M.F.
The New Colossus poem was written by a German Jew, at a time when the US not only could sustain mass immigration, it also benefitted from it. She was also a Zionist Jew who believed in an isolated and segregated homeland for the Jewish people, ala Israel.
Even for the author of the new Colossus, different situations, different perspectives.
"There is no doubt that free and open immigration is the right policy in a libertarian state, but in a welfare state it is a different story: the supply of immigrants will become infinite. Your proposal that someone only be able to come for employment is a good one but it would not solve the problem completely. The real hitch is in denying social benefits to the immigrants who are here. That is very hard to do, much harder than you would think as we have found out in California."
-M.F.
Hmmm. You left out what came next...
"But nonetheless, we clearly want to move in the direction that you are talking about so this is a question of nitpicking, not of serious objection."
It was the welfare state that Friedman was arguing against here, not immigration. But when did being faithful to a speaker's context ever matter when in service to some higher cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo302
The New Colossus poem was written by a German Jew...
Emma Lazarus was born in New York City, and hence was as American as you or me. Her father was of German descent, while her mother was Portuguese.
"But nonetheless, we clearly want to move in the direction that you are talking about so this is a question of nitpicking, not of serious objection."
It was the welfare state that Friedman was arguing against here, not immigration.
Agreed. That should be clear from the opening sentence of the quote.
Quote:
But when did being faithful to a speaker's context ever matter when in service to some higher cause.
You are doing a disservice to yourself and your argument by making this false accusation in an attempt to insult.
Quote:
Emma Lazarus was born in New York City, and hence was as American as you or me. Her father was of German descent, while her mother was Portuguese.
Yes. My apologies for not making it clearer that I was referencing her family's background. I had assumed it was known that she was an American.
Your reply has not contested my point.
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