Never-Ending Double Standard Against State of Israel and Jews (Congress, parade, attorneys)
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To those whom much is given, much is expected. And Israel has been given a lot - starting with its creation in 1948 all the way to billions in aid given to it by the U.S. regularly. If Israel went at it completely alone, it probably wouldn't last very long. So as long as it's reliant on others for its existence, it's going to be subject to the expectations of its benefactors. I find it curious that Israel sees the U.S. as having betrayed it in recent events. My advice to Israel is not to bite the hand that feeds you.
That's not to say the Palestinians should not be held to a high standard as well. But they are not an established nation-state like Israel, so you can't expect them to be held to same standard. Both sides are guilty of wrongdoing. It's blind to ignore that reality. Israel ought to be better behaved than its non democracy neighbors. Because after all the cream always rises to the top as the saying goes.
To those whom much is given, much is expected. And Israel has been given a lot - starting with its creation in 1948 all the way to billions in aid given to it by the U.S. regularly. If Israel went at it completely alone, it probably wouldn't last very long. So as long as it's reliant on others for its existence, it's going to be subject to the expectations of its benefactors. I find it curious that Israel sees the U.S. as having betrayed it in recent events. My advice to Israel is not to bite the hand that feeds you.
That's not to say the Palestinians should not be held to a high standard as well. But they are not an established nation-state like Israel, so you can't expect them to be held to same standard. Both sides are guilty of wrongdoing. It's blind to ignore that reality. Israel ought to be better behaved than its non democracy neighbors. Because after all the cream always rises to the top as the saying goes.
You've written the post here that I think says it best: Unto whom much is given, much is expected.
I continue to support Israel overall because I believe they, by far, it come closest to embodying western democratic ideals. If Israel changed its behavior and became undemocratic, engaged in widespread murder of Palestinians, used its weapons indiscriminately against civilian populations, or refused to allow those Arabs that are citizens of their country a say in how the system is run, I could not support Israel.
Its a shame that some kind of resolution cannot be reached. Israel has much to offer its Arab neighbors in terms of technology, assistance building modern economies, and resource development. All these things exist within the Middle East if compromises can be made. During the John Kerry talks two years ago, it became clear that if Israel could reach some settlement with respect to the West Bank and Gaza with the Palestinians that more than twenty Arab nations were prepared to recognize Israel as a nation.
I maintain some dwindling hope that Israel will get better leadership and the Palestinians will as well, so that some sort of compromise can be reached. When human beings create problems, human beings can solve problems.
What I find interesting is that the OP wants Israel to have the right of self-determination. But wants us to be the guarantor of self-determination.
It is not unknown for a small country to have more powerful allies. I find this a further illustration of the prevailing double standard, that it's OK for "non-aligned" nations to vote as a bloc at the U.N. and for other countries to ally and bully smaller ones, yet not OK for Israel.
For example, was it OK for North Korea to ally with China and the USSR to try to obliterate South Korea?
Yeah, I would say that Israel does a good job taking care of itself. They've kicked butt and taken names in all the wars they've been in. They don't need our help.
Except for defense funding, no. Their tax base is too small to support all they need for self-preservation. And most if not all defense armaments are purchased from U.S. companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
I also don't see the advantages of our relationship with Israel. So it's a quasi-European democracy in the Mideast. So what?
Well there are a few.
One is that Israel is good at developing hi-tech concepts, and needs help funding them. The concepts benefit both military and civilian industries in the U.S.
Another is that it is likely at some point that the U.S. and/or other Western countries will need to intervene in that reason for humanitarian reasons or to keep order. Would you prefer a Normandy style storming of the beaches, with the attendant carnage, or a simple, easy landing at a modern airport, air force base or seaport; and
Doesn't the U.S. and the West at least in theory stand by fellow democracies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
If anything, it makes us a terror target and drags us into geopolitical problems we never asked for. Funny that the Arab world didn't really care one way or another about America before the creation of Israel.
It seems that Turkey and Europe get lots of terror attacks and don't notably support Israel.
Somehow I don't think that most attackers would be appeased if we throw Israel to the wolves. If anything they'd act out more.
Neither Arafat, Abbas or Mashal want a solution. As proven by Arafat who pocketed Billions, the other two and their inner circles have become Millionaires from major skimming of donated funds. None of them want to give that up.
Israel had gotten tired of the negotiation line being moved by the Arabs for 50 years.(truncated for space)
So is your point that Israel should never negotiate with the Palestinians and Arabs at all?
No. But when the negotiations become bad-faith or fruitless. It became clear that those in control of the PA had no intention of giving up the gravy train, so why should Israel wasted time and public relations disasters for something utterly fruitless?
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Originally Posted by dillionmt
Exactly. Let Israel stand by itself. I think we would be amazed how quickly they would come to the table trying to actually find solutions to the Palestinians rather than being as recalcitrant as they have been.
As in go out of business as a Jewish state? The Arabs have no intention of recognizing any Jewish state in the area. Within any boundaries. To give up the fight would doom the billions that are going to them to maintain the "struggle."
The Jewish people needed a place to call home after WWII. Nobody wanted them so they got sent to the Middle East.
Put on land they supposedly owned thousands of years ago but now occupied by others who had no say in the matter.
Fast-forward to 2017 and it's a mess without a solution. The State of Israel isn't moving and the Arabs want them gone. There is no room for compromise. Either Israel stays or they go.
My guess is this will end badly for both. It's only a matter of time.
The U.S. needs to keep out of it.
What the West should do is let Israel win the fight. Israel is a Western democracy. The other countries, well, Syria is a great working model.
1) Israel - the U.S. will cut every dime of aid and weapons discounts unless you support a Palestinian state. Shut up about those stupid settlements. Shouldn't have built them in the first damn place. Remove them, pay market value to the owners & resettle the occupants.
You are assuming the settlements are the real obstacle. They're upset about the settlements because they guarantee Israel's survival. That's the real issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57
2) Palestine. You are going to take the country offered you or shut up. If you become a terror country, it won't be good for you.
Would you allow Israel to re-conquer if they become a terror state? If so why go through the exercise? We know what happened with Gaza. The PA has shown no plan to create a viable economy. All that they could do is become a terror state.
No. But when the negotiations become bad-faith or fruitless. It became clear that those in control of the PA had no intention of giving up the gravy train, so why should Israel wasted time and public relations disasters for something utterly fruitless?As in go out of business as a Jewish state? The Arabs have no intention of recognizing any Jewish state in the area. Within any boundaries. To give up the fight would doom the billions that are going to them to maintain the "struggle."
But this is false. Egypt and Jordan which are Arab states recognize Israel. So, does Turkey, another Muslim country. Saudi Arabia and other states have set down conditions upon which they would recognize Israel with primarily involve returning the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians.
For the record I support Israel and US support for Israel because Israel is the only democratic country in the Middle East and the only country in the Middle East whose goals and culture are compatible with America. Israel is America's best ally in the Middle East.
And will your support end when Israel becomes an apartheid state? That is the path they are on now. The Arab population within Israel and the occupied lands will exceed the Jewish population if Israel adopts the so-called one-state solution, which is what the conservatives want. There goes democracy. This is what Obama was trying to prevent when he "stabbed Israel in the back" 2 weeks ago.
Israel is in a no-win situation. I cannot see them ever coming to terms with the Palestinians and hence they will always be hated by their neighbors. We should expect further wars in the future involving the Israelis and they will suck us into those. Does that help the US achieve our long term goal in the middle east? I am not sure it does.
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