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How could the Cold War have ended better than it did? We managed it well, with only two major conflicts and both were contained. Just 20 years after South Vietnam fell the USSR fell as well. If we had defeated the North Vietnamese, how much earlier would the end have come? 1987 maybe?
I can't see how things could have turned out better than they did.
To stand by Churchill, you'd have to be very fast indeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 I think you should be honest with the people here. Your criticism of FDR is a result of your background and a belief that he could have done than he did for the Jews of Europe. That is debatable. However, I have seen how this belief renders you unable to discuss his presidency rationally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
...
I concede that is a good part of my reason but I am a fully rational person. His willful negligence on the Western European Jews was of a piece with his favoring non-Western cultures such as India, the Muslim land and the Russians. He hardly stood by Churchill. He undermined the British hold on India despite the fact that many Indians were fighting for the Nazis.
...
FDR by himself is a massive topic. I think he would have done more for the Jewish & other refugees trying to flee the Nazis - but the US in 1930CE was a very different place than it is now. Think where we would be in STEM alone if we had thrown open the doors for all displaced peoples from Europe who wished to leave - Who knows, we might be on the moon, in NEO, have built the Skyhook, & gone on to colonize or @ least industrialize the solar system.
Churchill was a very slippery person - FDR practically had to nail him in place in order to get Churchill to honor the agreements he & the British gov. had made during the course of WWII - read
Commander in chief : FDR's battle with Churchill, 1943 / Nigel Hamilton, c2016, Houghton Miflin Harcourt, 940.532 HAMI.
Summary
"Nigel Hamilton's Mantle of Command drew on years of archival research and interviews to portray FDR in a tight close up, as he determined Allied strategy in the crucial initial phases of World War II. Commander in Chief reveals the astonishing sequel--suppressed by Winston Churchill in his memoirs--of Roosevelt's battles with Churchill to maintain that strategy. Roosevelt knew that the Allies should take Sicily but avoid a wider battle in southern Europe, building experience but saving strength to invade France in early 1944. Churchill seemed to agree at Casablanca--only to undermine his own generals and the Allied command, testing Roosevelt's patience to the limit. Churchill was afraid of the invasion planned for Normandy, and pushed instead for disastrous fighting in Italy, thereby almost losing the war for the Allies. In a dramatic showdown, FDR finally set the ultimate course for victory by making the ultimate threat. Commander in Chief shows FDR in top form at a crucial time in the modern history of the West."-- Publisher description.
Length
xv, 464 pages, 16 unnumbered pages of plates : index
FDR died in harness - as did many managers during WWII. Churchill survived the war, & wrote his memoirs to"bury his mistakes", as he said. & he did. Plus he was a journalist by training, he wrote well, he spoke well, & somehow (in his voluminous & nearly never-ending writing & orating, @ least) he was always right, far-seeing, noble, generous, loved his mom & never kicked his dog. & besides, Churchill had a lot of time on his hands, having finally blown up all his bridges, whether on them or before them. A brilliant book.
We're lucky to be here. If it had been up to Churchill, the Allies would still be horsing away @ conquering the Mediterranean, ensuring that UK had a secure line of comms to India. As if that were the point of it all.
The people who claim we needed to "do something" about communism give communism far too much credit. You would think they think it's a long-term sustainable and stable economic/political system - after all, why would they think we needed to "fight" or "contain" it? If it was such an inferior system - and I agree it is - then the West needed to do absolutely nothing to bring about its demise, because such an inferior, unsustainable and unstable system was bound to collapse on its own weight, without the West so much as lifting a finger. Fortunately, by now we have all but gotten the collapse of communism, sans a few leftover holdouts. Unfortunately, in the meantime the US and elsewhere expended a lot of lives, wasted a lot of money and created a lot of havoc trying to bring about the demise of a system that was bound to self-destruct anyway. What a shame.
And that is the immoral aspect of your position. We have no right to "control" most of the world. Anymore than we would want to be controlled.
You believe in imperialism. And imperialism doesn't work for very long. That's been proved over and over again.
Shame. Shame. Shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
It doesn't matter. You do not have the right to own other people, any more than they have any right to own you. And that's what imperialism is.
Does it make a difference if the people are under Western control or the rapacious control of warlords, now with civilian Western titles? I think the latter is worse. Ask anyone in Aleppo, Syria. Or Mosul. Or Harare, Zimbabwe.
I guess it assuages your conscience if warlords are taking money you, through tax dollars, send to the U.N. to ease misery for weapons and Swiss bank accounts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 I think you should be honest with the people here. Your criticism of FDR is a result of your background and a belief that he could have done than he did for the Jews of Europe. That is debatable. However, I have seen how this belief renders you unable to discuss his presidency rationally.
FDR by himself is a massive topic. I think he would have done more for the Jewish & other refugees trying to flee the Nazis - but the US in 1930CE was a very different place than it is now. Think where we would be in STEM alone if we had thrown open the doors for all displaced peoples from Europe who wished to leave - Who knows, we might be on the moon, in NEO, have built the Skyhook, & gone on to colonize or @ least industrialize the solar system.
Churchill was a very slippery person - FDR practically had to nail him in place in order to get Churchill to honor the agreements he & the British gov. had made during the course of WWII - read
Commander in chief : FDR's battle with Churchill, 1943 / Nigel Hamilton, c2016, Houghton Miflin Harcourt, 940.532 HAMI.
Summary
"Nigel Hamilton's Mantle of Command drew on years of archival research and interviews to portray FDR in a tight close up, as he determined Allied strategy in the crucial initial phases of World War II. Commander in Chief reveals the astonishing sequel--suppressed by Winston Churchill in his memoirs--of Roosevelt's battles with Churchill to maintain that strategy. Roosevelt knew that the Allies should take Sicily but avoid a wider battle in southern Europe, building experience but saving strength to invade France in early 1944. Churchill seemed to agree at Casablanca--only to undermine his own generals and the Allied command, testing Roosevelt's patience to the limit. Churchill was afraid of the invasion planned for Normandy, and pushed instead for disastrous fighting in Italy, thereby almost losing the war for the Allies. In a dramatic showdown, FDR finally set the ultimate course for victory by making the ultimate threat. Commander in Chief shows FDR in top form at a crucial time in the modern history of the West."-- Publisher description.
Length
xv, 464 pages, 16 unnumbered pages of plates : index
FDR died in harness - as did many managers during WWII. Churchill survived the war, & wrote his memoirs to"bury his mistakes", as he said. & he did. Plus he was a journalist by training, he wrote well, he spoke well, & somehow (in his voluminous & nearly never-ending writing & orating, @ least) he was always right, far-seeing, noble, generous, loved his mom & never kicked his dog. & besides, Churchill had a lot of time on his hands, having finally blown up all his bridges, whether on them or before them. A brilliant book.
We're lucky to be here. If it had been up to Churchill, the Allies would still be horsing away @ conquering the Mediterranean, ensuring that UK had a secure line of comms to India. As if that were the point of it all.
Great and informative post even if we disagree. I repped the post even though I think that FDR was the ultimate scoundrel.
The people who claim we needed to "do something" about communism give communism far too much credit. You would think they think it's a long-term sustainable and stable economic/political system - after all, why would they think we needed to "fight" or "contain" it? If it was such an inferior system - and I agree it is - then the West needed to do absolutely nothing to bring about its demise, because such an inferior, unsustainable and unstable system was bound to collapse on its own weight, without the West so much as lifting a finger. Fortunately, by now we have all but gotten the collapse of communism, sans a few leftover holdouts. Unfortunately, in the meantime the US and elsewhere expended a lot of lives, wasted a lot of money and created a lot of havoc trying to bring about the demise of a system that was bound to self-destruct anyway. What a shame.
You are right about Communism's likelihood to fail. The problem with your analysis is that Stalin et. al. would agree with it. Thus the need to conquer territories and generally stir the pot, to make other areas open to domination.
How could the Cold War have ended better than it did? We managed it well, with only two major conflicts and both were contained. Just 20 years after South Vietnam fell the USSR fell as well. If we had defeated the North Vietnamese, how much earlier would the end have come? 1987 maybe?
I can't see how things could have turned out better than they did.
I'm not sure our dead from Korea (33,652) and Vietnam (58,315) would quite agree.
Does it make a difference if the people are under Western control or the rapacious control of warlords, now with civilian Western titles? I think the latter is worse. Ask anyone in Aleppo, Syria. Or Mosul. Or Harare, Zimbabwe.
I guess it assuages your conscience if warlords are taking money you, through tax dollars, send to the U.N. to ease misery for weapons and Swiss bank accounts.
You know something...it doesn't make a difference morally.
According to you, if the Russians or Chinese think their system is better than ours, then they have the right to control us. That's the philosophy that you have stated.
I'm not sure our dead from Korea (33,652) and Vietnam (58,315) would quite agree.
They were limited wars by recent and not so recent standards. Those soldiers paid the price for our freedom and we are grateful to them. Their sacrifice was not in vain. Fighting the Cold War a way other than we did could have resulted in many more soldiers being sacrificed than were.
Perfection can't be the standard. We all great quarterbacks on Monday morning. People are fallible and so are leaders. All in all, they leaders we had fought the Cold War pretty well.
They were limited wars by recent and not so recent standards. Those soldiers paid the price for our freedom and we are grateful to them. Their sacrifice was not in vain. Fighting the Cold War a way other than we did could have resulted in many more soldiers being sacrificed than were.
Perfection can't be the standard. We all great quarterbacks on Monday morning. People are fallible and so are leaders. All in all, they leaders we had fought the Cold War pretty well.
"I can't see how things could have turned out better than they did." Who said that? You did.
Things could have turned out much better.
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To stand by Churchill, you'd have to be very fast indeed
