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However, you must admit that JIHAD is part of Islam and there is no way around it.
Islam simultaneously embraces total war and total peace - an illogical concept to anyone else.
Jihad is no different than Christians and their crusades.
It has nothing to do with the religion itself and everything to do with a few people wishing to gain power, wealth, and influence through the usage of religion. It's been that way since religion was invented. Religion is perhaps one of the worlds greatest inventions for controlling populations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tickyul
That dreadful and insane "mission" in Iraq and Afghanistan.......I would like to think it would never have happened.
Sadly... I doubt it. When Bush and friends got us into Iraq they lied through their teeth in trying to sell it to us and knew it.
If they had actually never happened... in particular Iraq... I think the GOP would be in better shape today. Some friends and I have been debating this recently, but we argue that Iraq had a big thing to do with leading to their dysfunction today. Bush lying to the people and sending American men and women to die for nothing is something the GOP has attached to it's name, and is something a lot of conservatives probably wish was not there. Because it's still recent history we've been easy going on the ordeal. However, as time goes by, history will see what Bush and friends did for what it was, a sever betrayal of the American people.
The dysfunction gave rise to trump, whom any rational human being knows is a piece of trash, but because their parties identity was shattered with Iraq, and now with trump, they have no choice but to vehemently defend him. This gave rise to how they eat their own, and gave rise to the monikers like "RINO" to anyone that points out the flaws of the party.
It's an identity crisis basically. I haven't seen anyone here talking about the Russian chick that the FBI arrested the other day with links to the NRA during the election. They can't get a break.
Last edited by LordSquidworth; 07-17-2018 at 07:19 PM..
- Iraq War - As was discussed in another recent thread, Military action to remove Saddam was inevitable as established by 1998's "Iraq Liberation Act" signed by Clinton. After that, it was just a matter of time. If it wasn't 9/11, it would have been another political trigger. 3 years later, 5 years later...Opinion - delayed impact.
The nicest thing I can say is that I completely disagree. Without the 9/11 attack, the President would have had a very difficult time whipping the country into the sort of "gung ho" mood that many developed. To this day, there are some ignorant people who believe Saddam Hussein was behind the attack on the WTC. The desire for revenge that existed after 9/11 was real. GWB channeled that thirst for revenge into an attack on Iraq. There are even some who speak of a "Bush Doctrine". The Bush Doctrine, simply stated, was that after 9/11, the USA could not/ would not take the chance of weapons of mass destruction falling into the hands of a rogue regime. Much is made of the fact that in 2002, Bush introduced a resolution in Congress authorizing the use of military force in Iraq and that about half the democrats in the Senate supported it. The problem is this resolution was not seen by many who voted for it as a greenlight to invade Iraq. Instead it was seen as giving the President necessary support to force a peaceful negotiated resolution to removing WMDs from Iraq. Military action against SH was not inevitable and if we had left him where he was the USA would have literally saved at least $1 trillion US dollars. The war was a catastrophic mistake, a blunder of enormous magnitude that simply shouldn't have been made. Its sad than some still fail to recognize it. Even Donald Trump (whom I despise) did recognize this war was a terrible mistake.
- Howard Dean - One would have to see an alternative scenario without the "Dean Scream". Actually, without the war in 2004 Bush would have likely won with a greater margin. Opinion - reverse impact.
Its very difficult to gaze into a crystal ball and say "what if" Bush hadn't invaded Iraq. What I can say with certainty is that prior to 9/11, Bush's standing in presidential approval polls was poor. Additionally, the democrats held a one vote majority in the US Senate and could stop most Bush legislation from becoming law. Bush was not seen by many as a charismatic or effective leader. Would he have been reelected in 2004? I don't know. His father served only one term. The war changed things dramatically before public opinion soured on it between 2004 and 2006.
- Recession - as much as we insert politics, recessions are cyclical. They are not the results of "decades of excess" necessarily (unless you define that as trade imbalances and lax lending standards) but that's a subject for another topic. 9/11 wasn't really that relevant. Opinion - very little impact.
Recessions are cyclical, but the 2008 recession was a nasty one. I don't think the people who fought that recession are given the credit they really deserve. The USA was looking at a collapse of both major industries and its financial system in late 2008 and early 2009. Action by President Bush, President Obama, the Federal Reserve and Congress prevented a bad recession from becoming another Great Depression. The action was so effective that no one pauses to give credit where credit is due today. Even I credit George W. Bush with making important decisions at this time.
- Political polarization - On the contrary, 9/11 brought the parties and nation together, at least temporarily. Didn't take long for those warm feelings to fade however. Opinion - no impact.
-Pop music/movies - As a general rule, people don't like entertainment to include topics covering subjects such as wars and disasters. Entertainment is escapist as a rule. There are notable exceptions - "24" as was mentioned, and some well made movies. Pop music continues to suck. Opinion - little impact.
IMO, an important opportunity was blown after 9/11. A more adept politician would have capitalized on the opportunity that was presented. GWB brought the nation together temporarily. However, his capitalizing on majorities in 2002 and 2004 to bring about a conservative republican agenda in Congress squandered any bipartisan feeling that was created in the wake of 9/11. Had he pursued a more centrist agenda such as that of his father and Bill Clinton, he would have had the support he needed in Iraq and might have gone down in history as a president who did much to heal the partisan divide in America. That did not happen and is a shame.
Everything else I sort of agree with. Islamaphobia I would actually say is greater.
Edit: You left out the biggest difference - the focus on security in every day life. You mentioned the Patriot Act of course but not the visible changes from airport screening (TSA) to xray machines and physical searches being an every day component of life while entering crowded public places such as amusement parks and stadiums.
I don't know whether to blame 9/11 or bad government policy for things like TSA. Enhanced security was inevitable after the WTC attack. Yet, some don't realize that we simply cannot continue spending like we do and that the very marginal utility gained by slightly more effective security systems has to be weighed against the enormous economic cost of such things. At some point, you just have to say that life is a risky proposition and that airplane travelers must accept risk in the same manner that those who drive automobiles on crowded highways accept risk daily.
9/11 changed things dramatically in this country and I suspect those changes will extend far past my own lifetime.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
The problem is this resolution was not seen by many who voted for it as a greenlight to invade Iraq. Instead it was seen as giving the President necessary support to force a peaceful negotiated resolution to removing WMDs from Iraq. Military action against SH was not inevitable and if we had left him where he was the USA would have literally saved at least $1 trillion US dollars. The war was a catastrophic mistake, a blunder of enormous magnitude that simply shouldn't have been made. Its sad than some still fail to recognize it. Even Donald Trump (whom I despise) did recognize this war was a terrible mistake.
There were already negotiated solutions with Iraq; the 1991-2 disarmament and oil-for-food come to mind. The problem is Saddam defied them. The U.N. resolutions and agreements had lost all credibility. The handling of the invasion and occupation was arguably botched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I don't know whether to blame 9/11 or bad government policy for things like TSA. Enhanced security was inevitable after the WTC attack. Yet, some don't realize that we simply cannot continue spending like we do and that the very marginal utility gained by slightly more effective security systems has to be weighed against the enormous economic cost of such things. At some point, you just have to say that life is a risky proposition and that airplane travelers must accept risk in the same manner that those who drive automobiles on crowded highways accept risk daily.
We agree on the TSA. Spot checks and psychological profiling would be less draining of productivity and arguably more effective.
However, you must admit that JIHAD is part of Islam and there is no way around it.
Islam simultaneously embraces total war and total peace - an illogical concept to anyone else.
Islam, like Christianity, is into revenge. That is almost human nature - especially in tribal (or race-based - or even economically shared) societies.
We created a lot of the cauldron for 9/11. There were a billion muslims in 1950 or so and how many terrorists were flying planes into buildings or blowing them up???
We very often fail to recognize intelligence, patience and REAL issues concerning our "foes du jour". This was certainly true in Vietnam and definitely so in Iraq and Afghanistan. We lost all of those wars....that is, if there is any true measure of victory as in past history.
Worse yet - if the terrorism of the 80's to 2010 is due to our mistreatment (and killing) of many muslims, just imagine the number of families and tribes right now with dead, tortured, injured or otherwise "wronged" members....and then consider that these people, like us here in the USA (need I mention Confederates?) DO NOT FORGET.
We often tend to be enemies with many who are quite like us....
I shudder at the thought(s), because it is bound to happen. Millions of muslims have very good reason to want to extract revenge...for generations. And, we are still at it...so making more terrorists each day.
I hope I am wrong, but I don't see where my logic is off. I don't blame the muslims....some of it is happenstance, but most of it is our foolishness and propensity to think bombs solve real problems.
Islam needs reformation - but that is a separate issue. I don't see them giving up religion like the Chinese, etc. and relying instead on logic and reason. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon....
Sorry for the necro, but I was thinking of this earlier.
First we need to hammer down just how 9/11 is prevented. Two good scenarios. Bin Laden is killed by the airstrikes Clinton ordered on August 20, 1998. Or, alternatively, the hijackers are captured, as one was arrested in August 2001. One leaves Al Quieda decapitated, the other leaves Bin Laden alive and at large.
With this, I'm going to run with Bin Laden dying in 1998. The latter scenario all but guarantees a second, 9/11-stand in event occurs in 2002-2003 in Los Angeles, Seattle or Chicago. Which kicks off things as we know it today.
So, culturally from 1999-2007 at the very latest. The End of History continues. It's basically still the 1990's. No major war in Afghanistan. Bush is still narrowly elected in 2000. We intentionally escalate and try to maneuver a regime change in Iraq. With no patriotic fervor to actually invade the country. But ultimately, the push to remove Saddam Hussein has only been pushed back 5 years tops. 24 never gains the traction it did pop culture wise. The X-Files continues for 1 more season in 2001-2002 then gets a sequel series starring Doggett and Reyes that lasts until 2003-04, The Lone Gunmen gets a second season. The 2002 Spider-Man movie has the famous Twin Towers scene.
Note, the movies of American Beauty, Fight Club and Office Space remain relevant for an extra 5 years. Rather than the zeitgeist in them disappearing in September 2001:
Bush is a two term president. There are escalations in tension with China over the Hainan Island incident. Focusing almost exclusively on domestic issues. No Child Left Behind is his biggest accomplishment. The housing bubble still explodes from the post late-1990's economic expansion. Democrats retake the House in 2002. A large Katrina-style storm still happens on the Gulf Coast, but is better managed. Perhaps New Orleans is hit dead-on rather than side swiped. By 2008-2009, the economy crashes still. Obama is never elected. Hillary Clinton is elected in 2008. Tea Party populism and Occupy Wall Street still happen. Hillary's presidency plays out almost verbatim like Obama's did. Alot of flat, fake platitudes, and the economy doesn't bounce back until 2012-2013. The Republican Party is unified in it's hatred of her. The Democrats still embrace identity politics, and with the advent of social media. Polarization still happens.
The Arab Spring still occurs, albeit much more bloody and violent than what we saw. With the US sponsoring an overthrow and military action against Saddam Hussein. The intelligence apparatus still implements many PATRIOT Act policies more underhandedly, and illegally.
Donald Trump still trial-runs a Presidental run in 2012. Hillary gets re-elected. Interestingly, racial escalation doesn't happen as much. But events parallel to Trayvon Martin and Ferguson still happen. Political polarization hits a fever pitch after Hillary's re-election. Identity politics hits a fever pitch still with SJWism on campuses, an earlier #MeToo A Second Cold War against the Russians is brewing.
Barack Obama becomes a Supreme Court Justice, Donald Trump becomes POTUS in 2016.
The Towers still stand, but not too much else changed.
The recession was caused by a reallocation of Capital from the US to southeast Asia. There's nothing government could have done to stop it.
I have seen ONE, and only ONE technical economic paper on the effect of the Bush2 tax cuts. The authors point was that it lead to the GREATEST ECONOMIC BOOM in world history.
The BOOM happened in China.
I am not sure if that is right or wrong, but it might be worth having a close look at the effects of the Bush2 tax cuts. BTW....the McCain tax cut proposals made more sense in my eyes, but McCain....well, he wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed. Proposing his tax cuts and then saying he didn’t understand economics!!!
That will always be a problem for people in the USA. Too many never leave the the borders of the contiguous states. They simply like repeating egotistical self-praise called "exceptionalism." One of the beauties of travel is to experience other cultures.
In general, many Americans go along with W's mantra: "It's our way or the highway." There is no understanding with that. It simply breeds violence.
As an immigrant to this country.....I must assume you are a native born American and have NO CLUE about America. The world is NOTHING like America.
AND...btw American exceptionalism....Any immigrant, military member or Federal employee should know the difference.
When I took the oath of American citizenship.....I did NOT swear an other of alligence to the United States.
I swore an oath of alligence to the Constitution of the United States and swore to protect it against all enemies foreign and domestic.
The rest of the world swears alligence to a Queen, King, nationalility, and other nonsense. The oath in the US swears alligence to a IDEA.
As an immigrant to this country.....I must assume you are a native born American and have NO CLUE about America. The world is NOTHING like America.
AND...btw American exceptionalism....Any immigrant, military member or Federal employee should know the difference.
When I took the oath of American citizenship.....I did NOT swear an other of alligence to the United States.
I swore an oath of alligence to the Constitution of the United States and swore to protect it against all enemies foreign and domestic.
The rest of the world swears alligence to a Queen, King, nationalility, and other nonsense. The oath in the US swears alligence to a IDEA.
thank you for posting this...
some folks should read it 5 times.
im on the fence with the op's question...
because oil is the engine of progress in the world its one of the most important … resources.
if oil goes to 12 dollars a gallon in the u.s. we go into a depression and if the u s goes into a depression we are dragging the world down with us....
we are a huge consumption country that buys goods all over the world
so.... if we didn't take over Iraq and the worlds most important resource is questionable...…
this world could have gone into a 20 yr depression..... keep in mind we have a media that pours gas on any fire and would fuel chaos around the world..
the best thing the u s has done is become energy efficient...self sufficient in the past 10 yrs..
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