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I worked for a "Big Pharma" company of many years. The company I worked for, invested tens of millions of dollars a year back into the company. Many of the projects were failures so there was no return on those millions. Pharma companies get sued all the time. The CEO's job is to get a good return on investors money. Raw materials costs keep going up. FDA inspections are somewhat arbitrary (a great deal depends on the person doing the inspection) and they can pretty much demand whatever they want, no matter what the cost. Pension funds, labor costs, equipment, research and development, building new facilities, maintenance, product recalls, insurance, destroyed product, utilities etc. all cost money. For every successful product brought to market, there are perhaps ten that don't. The costs of those failed products still have to be absorbed. Not that price gouging doesn't take place, but take a moment to look at the other side.
Last edited by skugelstadt; 06-27-2017 at 12:02 PM..
Gaylen, I am deemed chronically ill. I have Diabetes, Fibromyalgia, RSD, Peripheral Neuropathy, Hypothyroidism, High Blood Pressure. I don't look sick but I am. Most of it is genetics and a lot of nerve damage perhaps caused by infections or surgeries I had. My blood sugar is ok. A1C I should say. Out of 5 siblings only two of us are diabetic. Our father was.... I always took care of myself and was a runner at one point. For whatever reason, I got saddled with it
I have been on a strong pain medication for the last 10 yrs. I take my medication as prescribed. I was never an addict. I don't smoke nor do I drink.
Everyone wants to sue the pharmaceuticals especially loved ones who have lost family members to opioids. One thing we never hear is were these loved ones ever a drug addict doing street drugs? Could they have kept it from their parents? I am paying a big price because of these folks. You do not eat a bunch of pills and if you are - you have a serious issue. My brother was an addict for 20+ yrs. I got him into rehab after he came to me for help after our mother died. He was on a job later and fell. Doctor gave him vicodin so he fell off the wagon. He would get a 30 day supply and they would be gone in one week. We would have arguments and he would tell me his pain was worse then mine. BS. He would doctor shop. He would go to the ER hoping to get drugs. I knew what he was doing. I knew his game. Doctors are wise and know the drug addicts. If you take your pain medication as PRESCRIBED you should not have any problems and I am proof of that as are many others.
I am treated like an addict in society however but if you look up RSD you will see it is very painful. I am paying for what addicts have done to themselves. I don't get high when I take my meds. It goes right to the pain. The media is stirring the controversy and making life horrible for us. My brother died in 2014. His body shut down. He did Meth for far too long and then vicodin. I miss him a lot but I think once an addict always an addict. Like I said I am on a potent pain patch and have been for 10 yrs. They give this to cancer patients but you know what? It helps ease my pain and I am SO grateful for that. I can do a little gardening and have some quality of life.
Personally, I don' have much evidence either way at the moment. I'm curious to know what evidence is out there, which is why I started this thread. What I really don't want is 50 pages of grand pronouncements, opinions, and partisan bickering without any grounding in references to sources of empirical evidence.
BTW: I would also be happy to hear personal stories that bear on the subject. These would be anecdotal rather that scientific, but I'd still like to hear them.
Are questions acceptable? It's been brought to my attention that many of the big pharma syndicates in the U.S. also own & operate the companies that manufacture the chemicals put into our food/drink....however, I have been unable to verify. If this IS true though, are they making us sick so that we become dependent on their "cures"?
The industry is structured as an oligopoly, which means that firms acquire pricing power, even without collusion. As a result, their profits are higher (but lower than that of a monopoly) and the result is more in their interest than that of the consumers of their products.
Are questions acceptable? It's been brought to my attention that many of the big pharma syndicates in the U.S. also own & operate the companies that manufacture the chemicals put into our food/drink....however, I have been unable to verify. If this IS true though, are they making us sick so that we become dependent on their "cures"?
Could be...except that they arent actually curing anything at this point (other than some strains of Hep C). There hasnt been a true cure found for much of anything significant in nearly a century. Everything is and endless & expensive "treatment" or "therapy" or "management tool" etc that must continue ad infinitum just to have a CHANCE (not a guarantee) to possibly LIVE WITH (not eliminate) the illness...there has been virtually nothing produced in recent times that fixes (cures) anything without creating 2 or 3 more severe problems in its place. (See Invokana: with leg amputations as a common "side effect" ..lol)
Could be...except that they arent actually curing anything at this point (other than some strains of Hep C). There hasnt been a true cure found for much of anything significant in nearly a century. Everything is and endless & expensive "treatment" or "therapy" or "management tool" etc that must continue ad infinitum just to have a CHANCE (not a guarantee) to possibly LIVE WITH (not eliminate) the illness...there has been virtually nothing produced in recent times that fixes (cures) anything without creating 2 or 3 more severe problems in its place. (See Invokana: with leg amputations as a common "side effect" ..lol)
Vaccines do not cure diseases, they prevent them, saving millions of lives.
Antibiotics cure infections.
Many conditions can be cured with surgery, which has come a long, long way in the last hundred years.
My son is alive because his leukemia was cured, diagnosed in 1989. There are millions of people who have been cured of cancers of many kinds.
I do not care if my anti-hypertensive medication does not cure my high blood pressure. It works and it's free (from Publix Pharmacy).
I am sure people with HIV would prefer to be cured, but they are now living normal lives with medication.
The people having to have amputations while on Invokana are often people who already have vascular problems and some have already had amputations, so they were at risk anyway. Also, most of the amputations have involved toes and feet, not legs, and they are not common: the risk in the medication group in the study that found the problem was 7 per 1,000 users compared to 3 per 1,000 on placebo. That's an increased risk of 4 per 1,000, which I would not describe as "common".
Vaccines do not cure diseases, they prevent them, saving millions of lives.
Antibiotics cure infections.
Many conditions can be cured with surgery, which has come a long, long way in the last hundred years.
My son is alive because his leukemia was cured, diagnosed in 1989. There are millions of people who have been cured of cancers of many kinds.
I do not care if my anti-hypertensive medication does not cure my high blood pressure. It works and it's free (from Publix Pharmacy).
I am sure people with HIV would prefer to be cured, but they are now living normal lives with medication.
The people having to have amputations while on Invokana are often people who already have vascular problems and some have already had amputations, so they were at risk anyway. Also, most of the amputations have involved toes and feet, not legs, and they are not common: the risk in the medication group in the study that found the problem was 7 per 1,000 users compared to 3 per 1,000 on placebo. That's an increased risk of 4 per 1,000, which I would not describe as "common".
As with any medication, patient and doctor have to discuss benefits and risks on an individual basis.
Right...invokana causes amputations.
Thats what I said. So, thanks for for the confirmation.
Splitting hairs over whether its a foot or a whole leg is of no consolation in my opinion. But if thats supposed to be of some consolation to those who have lost limbs (maybe just a foot instead of a leg) while taking it, then I hope they're happy knowing the miracle drug that caused their amputation (twice as many amputations as non Invokana users with the same risk factors, to be exact) simply exacerbated an already underlying condition.
But anyway, I do believe we're all aware of what vaccines are for...not quite sure why those were brought up. But right you are that antibiotics are great for alleviating bacterial infections, and have been linked to causing everything from intestinal disorders to diabetes to increasing suseptability to multiple deadly viruses.
And Im sure you dont care if your hypertension is ever cured. Thats good for you. Im also sure there are people awaiting a kidney transplant for whom blood pressure medication has failed to work who wouldnt mind a cure. As stated, ymmv.
While I am sincerely elated to hear that your son was treated successfully for Leukemia, to my knowledge leukemia is not routinely curable in adults, and remission technically is not a cure. But again, congratulations on his recovery, all the same, and Im more than happy to add that feather to the cap of modern medicine to bring the number of recent cures produced after billions of dollars in pharmaceutical research to a grand total of 2. (Including some strains of Hep C) Hooray.
And of course discussing benefits and risks of the dangerous, limb threatening drug Invokana is advisable, and moreover, common sense. May be difficult to have an honest discussion though about a common "side effect" that the public and doctors were only made aware of in June 2017, after the manufacturer was forced by the FDA to add a heightened Black Box warning (not some trivial lowlevel warning) to the drug's literature and after the drug had already been on the market and had been taken by patients for 4 years, since 2013.
But IDK, maybe patients and doctors have a time machine they can hop in and timewarp back to 2013 before they started taking Invokana and lost their feet so they can have a nice long discussion about it. That would be swell.
Last edited by soletaire; 07-08-2017 at 10:54 PM..
All Big Business (and Big Business) exist to increase their own wealth (translating to power). And the way to get money is to maximize profits--by minimizing costs (particularly labor), maximizing prices, and using every trick in the book to benefit the company (i.e., buy politicians who pass the laws that benefit you most.
So of course, by definition, Big Pharma would only help the public as an unintended by-product of fulfilling its mission as a Big Business.
Right...invokana causes amputations.
Thats what I said. So, thanks for for the confirmation.
Splitting hairs over whether its a foot or a whole leg is of no consolation in my opinion. But if thats supposed to be of some consolation to those who have lost limbs (maybe just a foot instead of a leg) while taking it, then I hope they're happy knowing the miracle drug that caused their amputation (twice as many amputations as non Invokana users with the same risk factors, to be exact) simply exacerbated an already underlying condition.
But anyway, I do believe we're all aware of what vaccines are for...not quite sure why those were brought up. But right you are that antibiotics are great for alleviating bacterial infections, and have been linked to causing everything from intestinal disorders to diabetes to increasing suseptability to multiple deadly viruses.
And Im sure you dont care if your hypertension is ever cured. Thats good for you. Im also sure there are people awaiting a kidney transplant for whom blood pressure medication has failed to work who wouldnt mind a cure. As stated, ymmv.
While I am sincerely elated to hear that your son was treated successfully for Leukemia, to my knowledge leukemia is not routinely curable in adults, and remission technically is not a cure. But again, congratulations on his recovery, all the same, and Im more than happy to add that feather to the cap of modern medicine to bring the number of recent cures produced after billions of dollars in pharmaceutical research to a grand total of 2. (Including some strains of Hep C) Hooray.
And of course discussing benefits and risks of the dangerous, limb threatening drug Invokana is advisable, and moreover, common sense. May be difficult to have an honest discussion though about a common "side effect" that the public and doctors were only made aware of in June 2017, after the manufacturer was forced by the FDA to add a heightened Black Box warning (not some trivial lowlevel warning) to the drug's literature and after the drug had already been on the market and had been taken by patients for 4 years, since 2013.
But IDK, maybe patients and doctors have a time machine they can hop in and timewarp back to 2013 before they started taking Invokana and lost their feet so they can have a nice long discussion about it. That would be swell.
It's not splitting hairs when you claimed leg amputations were "a common side effect" when it turns out they were not. A risk of all amputations of 4 per 1,000 is not "common". That means that 996 per 1000 will not have that complication: 99.6%.
The reason drugs are monitored after they are marketed is because it is not feasible to pick up uncommon adverse effects in premarketing studies because the number of participants needed would be prohibitively large and too expensive.
In addition, premarketing studies often exclude people with conditions like vascular disease. That is why postmarketing studies are done in such populations.
With Invokana, the proposed mechanism for the amputation issue is dehydration predisposing to microvascular problems leading to infection. Now that the issue is known about, anyone using the drug will be told to be especially sure to practice good diabetic foot care and report problems to his doctor. It means that the drug is not going to be a first choice for everyone with type 2 diabetes. There may be people for whom it is the best option because other medications have not controlled their diabetes. That is why the benefit to risk conversation is necessary.
I mentioned vaccines because you implied medicine had done nothing for a century except come up with a cure for hepatitis C.
Yes, I am perfectly fine with my hypertension being controlled on medication. There are millions of people like me who take cheap pills that work. I never said they work for everyone.
Do antibiotics cause diabetes or do people predisposed to diabetes get more infections that are treated with antibiotics? Does an antibiotic predispose to a viral infection, or does the infection that the antibiotic was given for do it? None of that has anything to do with the fact that antibiotics do cure infections, though you seem to be denying it.
Childhood leukemia is not the only curable cancer, and for many cancers, and remission which hits the five year mark now predicts for "permanent remission", AKA cure. It's been over 28 years since my son was diagnosed, and results of treatment for his type of cancer have improved since he was treated. Adults with leukemia do not do as well, but some are indeed cured.
Breast cancer is curable.
Colon cancer is curable.
Cervical and uterine cancer are curable.
Testicular cancer is curable.
Hodgkin disease is curable.
Thyroid cancer is curable.
Antibiotics cure infections from head to toe.
LASIK cures refractive errors of the cornea of the eye..
Work proceeds on more cancers, with promising results for melanoma and some lung cancers.
Gene therapy may cure sickle cell anemia, and it is potentially possible for a whole slew of others.
Recent medicine has produced far more than two cures.
Perhaps you know someone who took Invokana and needed an amputation. If so, I am truly sorry, but that is no reason for a blanket condemnation of all medicine.
It's not splitting hairs when you claimed leg amputations were "a common side effect" when it turns out they were not. A risk of all amputations of 4 per 1,000 is not "common". That means that 996 per 1000 will not have that complication: 99.6%.
Split hairs about it if you wish but when there is a two fold increase of amputations in patients with the same risk factors over placebo ( without taking medication at all ) then thats a "side effect" thats common. The fatal DKA it also causes probably isnt considered to be common by some either. Yet strangely the manufacturers thought it was significant enough to include the warning in the drug's original literature unlike it did for leg amputations.
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The reason drugs are monitored after they are marketed is because it is not feasible to pick up uncommon adverse effects in premarketing studies because the number of participants needed would be prohibitively large and too expensive.
In addition, premarketing studies often exclude people with conditions like vascular disease. That is why postmarketing studies are done in such populations.
With Invokana, the proposed mechanism for the amputation issue is dehydration predisposing to microvascular problems leading to infection. Now that the issue is known about, anyone using the drug will be told to be especially sure to practice good diabetic foot care and report problems to his doctor. It means that the drug is not going to be a first choice for everyone with type 2 diabetes. There may be people for whom it is the best option because other medications have not controlled their diabetes. That is why the benefit to risk conversation is necessary.
Well aware of the difference between clinical trial phase of drugs and post market phase to analyze outcomes/efficacy. I agree that if people would like to control their blood sugar while having their feet amputated due to taking Invokana they can certainly choose to. Its absolutely their right.
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I mentioned vaccines because you implied medicine had done nothing for a century except come up with a cure for hepatitis C.
What?...i never said they had done nothing for a century.. lol..I said: there has been virtually nothing produced in recent times that fixes (cures) anything without creating 2 or 3 more severe problems in its place. Which is true. A vaccine is not a cure. So, Im still not sure why that was brought up at all in the context of cures. If vaccines are something you're proud of unto themselves, then thats your prerogative. And I think we're all glad there have been vaccines developed for some strains of viruses. However that notwithstanding, objectively speaking, prevention is not a cure.
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Yes, I am perfectly fine with my hypertension being controlled on medication. There are millions of people like me who take cheap pills that work. I never said they work for everyone.
Me either.
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Do antibiotics cause diabetes or do people predisposed to diabetes get more infections that are treated with antibiotics? Does an antibiotic predispose to a viral infection, or does the infection that the antibiotic was given for do it? None of that has anything to do with the fact that antibiotics do cure infections, though you seem to be denying it.
I havent denied anything. Rather nothing youve said here contradicts anything I said in the first place. Ergo, there is nothing for me to deny, because the original point was never contested to begin with. In fact, if you re-read my original post I never said no cures exist. I SPECIFICALLY said the few new cures that have been developedcause 2 or 3 additional and often worsen medical problems which must then be addressed; which is exactly right.
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Childhood leukemia is not the only curable cancer, and for many cancers, and remission which hits the five year mark now predicts for "permanent remission", AKA cure. It's been over 28 years since my son was diagnosed, and results of treatment for his type of cancer have improved since he was treated. Adults with leukemia do not do as well, but some are indeed cured.
Breast cancer is curable.
Colon cancer is curable.
Cervical and uterine cancer are curable.
Testicular cancer is curable.
Hodgkin disease is curable.
Thyroid cancer is curable.
Antibiotics cure infections from head to toe.
LASIK cures refractive errors of the cornea of the eye..
Work proceeds on more cancers, with promising results for melanoma and some lung cancers.
Gene therapy may cure sickle cell anemia, and it is potentially possible for a whole slew of others.
Recent medicine has produced far more than two cures.
As Im sure you know, promising research is far from a cure. Its great that theyre making strides and Im actually very grateful for the options (albeit very few cures) that modern medicine affords us. But until the promising research has received FDA clearance and can actually be implemented (hopefully without the absolutely ravaging after effects caused by cancer treatments, which some would say is worse than living with the disease itself - particularly in the case of prostate cancer.), then I remain hopefully optimistic, but not yet convinced that much is being cured today at all. Certainly not diseases like type 2 diabetes which is one of the fastest growing and deadliest diseases of our day or Lupus or Sickle Cell
I do know that LASIK is a nice treatment, and I know several people who have had LASIK, and they like it, but it is not a cure. Often times it only lasts a few years before vision is right back to deteriorating.
Thats not to take anything away from the fact that its a great option to have, but it simply is what it is. A treatment. Nothing more.
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Perhaps you know someone who took Invokana and needed an amputation. If so, I am truly sorry, but that is no reason for a blanket condemnation of all medicine.
I never even made a blanket condemnation of all medicine..lol.. In fact I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for trauma doctors in particular since they actually do solve problems. Heck, for that matter I could just as easily say you have no reason for your blanket worship of modern medicine.. although I know that would be a gross oversimplification of your sentiments, just as your statement that I have made some blanket condemnation of all medicine has been a gross oversimplification of mine.
Somehow you seem to be reading way more into my original and subsequent posts than what Ive actually said. Im the first to give credit where credit is due. But Im not going to play along and act as if modern medical research is producing cures for any significant number of illnesses when its simply not. And the few wonder drugs (which Invokana was originally considered to be) that do exist, cause downright horrific "side effects".
I dont know of anyone who has had an amputation as a result of invokana. Frankly, I dont know anyone taking Invokana but if I did, they wouldnt be taking it any longer, as Id do everything in my power to convince them to consider other alternatives in that class like Farxiga / Xigduo that doesnt carry a Black Box warning of leg amputations as a "side effect". Now, when science can induce limb regeneration then maybe the amputations caused by such drugs will be a moot point. But limb regeneration isnt possible, to my knowledge.
Last edited by soletaire; 07-09-2017 at 10:11 AM..
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