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Old 02-06-2017, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Louisiana to Houston to Denver to NOVA
16,505 posts, read 26,132,176 times
Reputation: 13283

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdoorgunner View Post
Some comrades,and quite a few relatives and friends upon their death had their coffins draped with that flag, and their next of kin was handed that flag with a salute and Thanks from a grateful nation.


I will NEVER look upon anyone who burns that flag in "protest" with anything but disgust........
No one is burning your friends flag in spite of him.
And if you believe in the freedoms the flag represents, you must accept the freedom to burn the flag or risk being hypocritical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCguy81 View Post
I think therein lies the difference in thought: I say the flag belongs to the people, to the republic. Definitely not the "ruling class". Burn away I guess, but what are you REALLY saying?
The people represent and vote for the government. The flag represents the government just the same as the general population. The government is a literal reflection of the people. No?

What people are really saying is that they are more than frustrated with the government/policies/social climate of the nation. Civil unrest is a historical sign of deeper issues. To look at millions of protesters with disgust is merely showcasing your apathy toward issues that may not directly affect you and/or a ignorance of history.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:49 PM
 
1,048 posts, read 1,262,134 times
Reputation: 2015
If Madison knew the lack of parenting and good education our youth were getting today, he probably would have worded the Constitution in more definitive terms. What I would like these violent protesters to explain is why they are covering their faces if they don't feel they are doing anything wrong by burning our flag and destroying private property.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:08 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,545 posts, read 16,611,262 times
Reputation: 29705
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLIER View Post
What I would like these violent protesters to explain is why they are covering their faces if they don't feel they are doing anything wrong by burning our flag and destroying private property.
Excellent point so I repped this post.

I think most supporters of flag burning are more nihilist or anarchist than liberal.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:20 PM
 
3,254 posts, read 2,087,335 times
Reputation: 5060
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I disagree. When I can identify that a person is enraged, I want to know why...even if I'm probably not in agreement with them. It's amazing what one can learn with an open mind.
I agree with your wanting to know why, but again, the act of burning the flag on its own doesn't get us there. There is no context with which to discern the 'why.' I can burn the flag for any or no reason at all. Doing so does not facilitate the discussion that ought to be had.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:33 PM
 
1,048 posts, read 1,262,134 times
Reputation: 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Excellent point so I repped this post.

I think most supporters of flag burning are more nihilist or anarchist than liberal.
Thank you for the positive rep. You may be right. Not only are some of the people hosting these violent protests teachers, some of the black masked rioters at the Berkeley protest actually worked as educators at Berkeley! I wrote to Virginia Commonwealth University because on one of their Asst. Professor's FB pages, he was hosting a national walkout. Maybe this isn't illegal but I know I wouldn't want some radical extremist influencing my child. It is illegal for a teacher to politically influence his students.

At some point, people are going to get sick of the nonsense and disrespect shown to our country and put a stop to the violence their way.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:34 PM
 
636 posts, read 390,652 times
Reputation: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
My example was not about an abused spouse. I said if one spouse were upset with the other (I guess I should have clarified that it was not a marriage-destroying thing such as abuse.).

But since you asked, yes, of course I would have sympathy for the wife in your scenario, and I would recognize that stomping on her wedding ring was her way of saying the marriage no longer has any value to her. When someone burns the flag, it says to me that the nation that flag represents no longer has value to them.

I was using an analogy since so many have said they don't see why it's a big deal to desecrate a symbol of something. They say, "It's just cloth." To me someone who burns a flag either hates America, does not understand that the flag represents SO much more than "just cloth," and/or they do not have the intelligence or skills to more effectively address their concerns.

That is how I view it.
This post exemplifies the problems with burning the flag.

People will ascribe their own meaning to it, rather than the meaning that is intended.

Now, a question might be, whether or not people who do such have the intelligence or skills to effectively engage in discussion.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,261 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32615
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpinionInOcala View Post
I agree with your wanting to know why, but again, the act of burning the flag on its own doesn't get us there. There is no context with which to discern the 'why.' I can burn the flag for any or no reason at all. Doing so does not facilitate the discussion that ought to be had.
Nor does ignoring them. Ignore is the base word of ignorant. And unfortunately, as we see on this forum every day, there is a group who doesn't want to know...doesn't want to have a conversation...wants to exist with...well...alt news and alt facts (as we all the time now). There's another thread that is discussing Lincoln, and naturally the Civil War. And repeatedly some posters have said that by the time the war started there were just short of 4 million slaves in the United States -- an all time high. And yet these posters continue to say that slavery as an institution was fading. To increase by about 750,000 slaves from 1850 to 1860 is hardly fading. But they want to ignore the rage that led to the Civil War. They want to ignore the rage that led to the civil rights discontent in the 1960s. They want to ignore the rage of BLM. Because it doesn't fit their mindset. And that was rage leads to violence and property destruction and flag burning, and so forth.

And, as an aside, some of the same people posting here about their outrage (there's a lot of that going around) at flag burning and property destruction, were posting their support back a few months ago at the taking over of government (meaning public) property in Oregon, and have hinted that they support insurrection.

Before retiring I was a principal, and whenever there was vandalism I always asked the student(s) why? And if there is a flag being burned, I want to know why. Because ignoring rage usually doesn't turn out very well. It just builds.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,261 posts, read 23,884,216 times
Reputation: 32615
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYLIER View Post
... It is illegal for a teacher to politically influence his students. ...
I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you show me that law? Or are you talking about a violation of the contract? Because frankly, none of the systems where I taught or administered had that in their contracts.
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:53 PM
 
3,254 posts, read 2,087,335 times
Reputation: 5060
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Nor does ignoring them. Ignore is the base word of ignorant. And unfortunately, as we see on this forum every day, there is a group who doesn't want to know...doesn't want to have a conversation...wants to exist with...well...alt news and alt facts (as we all the time now). There's another thread that is discussing Lincoln, and naturally the Civil War. And repeatedly some posters have said that by the time the war started there were just short of 4 million slaves in the United States -- an all time high. And yet these posters continue to say that slavery as an institution was fading. To increase by about 750,000 slaves from 1850 to 1860 is hardly fading. But they want to ignore the rage that led to the Civil War. They want to ignore the rage that led to the civil rights discontent in the 1960s. They want to ignore the rage of BLM. Because it doesn't fit their mindset. And that was rage leads to violence and property destruction and flag burning, and so forth.

And, as an aside, some of the same people posting here about their outrage (there's a lot of that going around) at flag burning and property destruction, were posting their support back a few months ago at the taking over of government (meaning public) property in Oregon, and have hinted that they support insurrection.

Before retiring I was a principal, and whenever there was vandalism I always asked the student(s) why? And if there is a flag being burned, I want to know why. Because ignoring rage usually doesn't turn out very well. It just builds.
Ah, but I never suggested that we ignore anyone. I've already stipulated that I, as well as you, want to get to the 'why' that is expressed through behavior. Discernible context is how that's achieved. Burning the flag provides no context. Burning the flag because <insert reason> provides a basis for discussion.

I don't dispute the factors you presented regarding causation of the Civil War or Civil Rights movement, so I'd appreciate your not indirectly lumping me in with the folks who deny or ignore such things.

The "rage of BLM" as you put it is an overly broad wording, though I'd be happy to discuss the intricacies of the movement with you either privately or in a new thread if you're interested. I enjoy reading your posts in general.

Yes, rage can lead to all sorts of actions (re: flag burning), but as flag burning is a symptom of rage in your example it becomes imperative that we know the cause of the underlying rage so that we (hopefully) may confront and rectify it together.

For the final time, and with respect:
  • Context matters.
  • I also want to understand the 'why' factor, but I need context to do so.
    • I don't think that you and I disagree on this point really.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:02 PM
 
3,254 posts, read 2,087,335 times
Reputation: 5060
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you show me that law? Or are you talking about a violation of the contract? Because frankly, none of the systems where I taught or administered had that in their contracts.
It may depend upon location, but there was a ruling in Oct./2008 in New York, for example, that prohibited teachers from wearing political buttons but affirmed the right to share political material with other staff via mailboxes and on union bulletin boards so long as distribution and display of such materials were limited to areas designated as "off-limits" to students. It's an interesting question in general, though admittedly I'm not an expert on the ins and outs.
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