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Old 04-21-2009, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
128 posts, read 377,192 times
Reputation: 102

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Bob...about the "gateway" drug thing, tell me this. What do kids often do prior to trying pot? Alcohol. What drug are they given while growing up? Caffeine. Before that...it's sugar. What about the parents who put their kids on amphetamines for ADD? So where do you draw the line at what exactly was the substance that started them down that path?

Btw, not everyone who smokes weed goes on to harder drugs...just like not everyone who gets drunk smokes weed, just like everyone who likes caffeine doesn't move on to amphetamines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob from the part of the country where I just moved from
By all means, let the weak and inferior have the "liberty" of easy access to the means to destroy themselves. The rest of us have worked too hard to spend our money to save them from themselves, anyway.
You're right...pot smokers should have the same access to pot as alcholics have to liquor and cigarette smokers have to tobacco considering it's far less harmful than either of those. At least you understand the correlation between the crime and the legal status of drugs Anyone who takes a look at a chart showing crime rates before, during, and after Prohibition can see this quite easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob
I've asked five doctors I know...two oncologists, two GPs, and an anethesiologist, about medical uses of MJ, and they were unanimous in telling me that there are better drugs for every purpose claimed by the medical MJ crowd.
What they failed to tell you, either knowingly or out of ignorance, is that there are these things in the plant form called metabolites (someone correct me if that's the wrong term) that alter the effects of the THC so that it "behaves" differently from pure THC extract. Just like lab made mescaline experiences are different than those from actual peyote.

Another aspect that is not often considered is nausea. Nausea is one of the main side effects of chemotherapy and one of the symptoms that medicinal MJ can help with when other methods fail. However, if you're already sick and can't keep anything down how is taking a pill and puking it up before it is digested useful? One thing us Westerners seem to have a problem with is ingesting any substance in any method other than orally (or anally in regards to suppositories)...why?

Btw bob, are you familiar with how the push for MJ prohibition gained it's massive surge? I'm not talking about it being used to control Mexican immigrants (they liked to smoke it so making it illegal made them easier to control for whatever reason, good or bad) in the late late 1800's/early 1900's but in the mid-40's. It all started with an investigation in to MJ by then-mayor of New York Mr. LaGuardia. This investigation in to MJ use was performed AND published by the New York Academy of Medicine...one of the things it found out was that MJ did not lead to the use of other drugs and that it was not addictive "in a medical sense".

Mr. Anslinger, basically our nation's first drug czar, went on a power trip (literally, it's well documented...especially considering his 32 year long fight with MJ) when he read about this document in an effort to further his political career (also well documented but rarely ever taught). He did his best to destroy every published copy he could find and used propaganda (full of lies, naturally...which continues to this day and is why most teens think D.A.R.E. is a joke. Studies have shown it is quite ineffective too) to make people think that MJ was extremely dangerous and harmful. Your idea that it is a gateway drug is founded on his lies...amazing how some things can persist for 60+ years huh?

Unfortunately since MJ is a Schedule I drug that means that it is almost impossible to get permission to perform medical studies with it. If you look at the requirements for a substance to be placed on the Schedule I list you'll see that it should not be there, Sch. I basically says that the substance has a HIGH potential for abuse (abuse and use are different, just because someone drinks doesn't make them an alcoholic just like someone smoking pot does not mean they're a useless pothead) and has no medical use. Opiates (cocaine and heroin) are only Schedule II but I think you will agree are much more dangerous and are constantly in the news about people getting addicted to their prescriptions, selling/buying on the black market to addicts, dying from OD's due to tolerance issues, pharmacy robberies, and so on. The reason that so many people still think it is a gateway drug and whatnot is because the government will not allow anyone to do any new studies to prove/disprove those arguments...even though it's already been proven they are false.

If the government allows MJ to be studied by an independant group (i.e., not one that has to answer to the DEA or the drug czar) the government will have many many decades of lies to swallow and admit they were wrong. It wouldn't be pleasant for them but it would be the right thing to do...even moving it to Schedule II would be a step in the right direction. This kind of goes back to the public education program called D.A.R.E., once kids/teens/whatever you want to call them try pot and realize that everything this program told them about it was pretty much lies they don't believe anything else they learned from it. What does this matter? A lot because their confidence in their teachers/teachings is destroyed and they then wonder what else they were lied to about and may try other harder drugs...but NOT because they smoked a joint. That's bunk.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:17 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
128 posts, read 377,192 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob from down south View Post
When somebody like you tells me you have a good paying job and get your stuff done without a problem, you remind me of that guy who just drove home drunk for the 99th time in a row without killing anyone.
How is being productive and taking care of your business the same as driving impaired? You're seriously stretching there...

Quote:
Users are losers
I'm sorry you think that way because it makes you look like an ignoramus. All those people with engineering/medical degrees (or any other degree) who smoke pot in their off time are losers, right? All those people who smoke pot who have a great family life and are productive members of society are losers. Professors at universities who educate the people about their specialties so they can go on to be better members of society who happen to like to smoke weed are losers. The list could go on for quite some time...

That's about as intelligent as me saying people who believe in religion are losers (note to all, I don't believe that but it's a good analogy)...they can't think for themselves ("Where's my Bible? I don't know what to think about this without consulting it."), they have to have a preacher tell them what is good or bad and that they are ALL sinners simply because they are human, they can't stand on their own two feet because they need God as a crutch, they are close-minded hypocrites who can't even agree amongst themselves what is right or wrong, and so on. That sounds stupid and so do you when you make such ignorant comments. You might be surprised at how many winners out there smoked pot on their path to where they are today or even continue to smoke it after being successful at life.

I can guarantee you that if you knew me or worked with me you would not think I was a loser. I can point you to 50+ people older and younger than myself who don't know I have ever smoked who can vouch for this...ex-employees, non-smoking friends, family, and so on. But hey, if it makes you happy to lump all users in to the "loser" category then go right ahead...ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:52 PM
 
Location: The 719
13,628 posts, read 21,483,824 times
Reputation: 13281
I take it you don't like being judged. You don't like being called a loser. I get that. I wouldn't like it either.

But is the person being judged for who he is, or because he's defending something that another views as undefendable? IDK.

So weed smokers is the counter argument to those that seek God and/or are religious? I don't get that analogy too much. Some people seek God with fantastic results, regardless of their hypocracy and conflict.

So, are you gonna make the argument that you are an outstanding citizen because you smoke weed or despite it? I'd like to understand that a bit more.

Let's say that you're an employer and you've got two equally qualified candidates. One passes a drug test and one fails. What do you do? That's a right now real... factual, believable situation.

I've worked with guys who smoke weed and I'm just sick of being around them... having to room with them, etc. They get high during work... and can continue to do remarkable work... so long as they don't interact with any customers or have to make any changes or decisions. In otherwords, they have a hard time acting on their feet and fixing things. They have to sneak off every 20 minutes to get high, and they lie about it. At the hotel/motel, they like to get non-smoking rooms and blow the smoke out a window or into a bathroom vent. I'm sick of it. They never ever see how addicted they are or how selfish they are.

Don't think you're addicted? Then quit for 22 days straight right now and tell me how that goes. And don't compare it to booze. We've heard that argument. It may be better than booze. But until it replaces booze and gets a gov't stamp on it, it's a moot point. It's illegal. It's illegal to buy and use the way that most people do.

If you want to open an argument up about why it's illegal, I think the health and wellness or Great Debates forum has some good ones.

Flashforward to ... well alrighty then. How's that working for you?

Last edited by McGowdog; 04-22-2009 at 01:18 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Summit County (Denver's Toilet)
447 posts, read 1,391,072 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
I take it you don't like being judged. You don't like being called a loser. I get that. I wouldn't like it either.

But is the person being judged for who he is, or because he's defending something that another views as undefendable? IDK.

So weed smokers is the counter argument to those that seek God and/or are religious? I don't get that analogy too much. Some people seek God with fantastic results, regardless of their hypocracy and conflict.

So, are you gonna make the argument that you are an outstanding citizen because you smoke weed or despite it? I'd like to understand that a bit more.

Let's say that you're an employer and you've got two equally qualified candidates. One passes a drug test and one fails. What do you do? That's a right now real... factual, believable situation.

I've worked with guys who smoke weed and I'm just sick of being around them... having to room with them, etc. They get high during work... and can continue to do remarkable work... so long as they don't interact with any customers or have to make any changes or decisions. In otherwords, they have a hard time acting on their feet and fixing things. They have to sneak off every 20 minutes to get high, and they lie about it. At the hotel/motel, they like to get non-smoking rooms and blow the smoke out a window or into a bathroom vent. I'm sick of it. They never ever see how addicted they are or how selfish they are.

Don't think you're addicted? Then quit for 22 days straight right now and tell me how that goes. And don't compare it to booze. We've heard that argument. It may be better than booze. But until it replaces booze and gets a gov't stamp on it, it's a moot point. It's illegal. It's illegal to buy and use the way that most people do.

If you want to open an argument up about why it's illegal, I think the health and wellness or Great Debates forum has some good ones.
No I don't like being judged just as much as the other guy!

The religion remark stems a ways back to the gay COS thread....IModerator cut: please discuss the topic, not other members..It has nothing to do with religion as a whole.

And yes I am an outstanding citizen even though I smoke weed........I volunteer for charity events through work, stay active in my community, and volunteer with the forestry service.

I'm not quitting $hit to prove to you or to anyone else ANYTHING.

Last edited by katzenfreund; 04-22-2009 at 09:45 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:22 PM
 
Location: The 719
13,628 posts, read 21,483,824 times
Reputation: 13281
So what you're saying is that you don't WANT to quit smoking weed?

Oh, I get it. Well alrighty then. I wish I could enjoy a toke now and again, but it's just not for everybody.

Going back to the Should it be legalized question... maybe we'll see you in the Great Debates, etc. forums on this interesting topic.

Happy skiing.
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Summit County (Denver's Toilet)
447 posts, read 1,391,072 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
So what you're saying is that you don't WANT to quit smoking weed?

Going back to the Should it be legalized question... maybe we'll see you in the Great Debates, etc. forums on this interesting topic.

Happy skiing.
Yea.....I don't really have a reason to.....all my co-workers/employer know that I do and it's cool.......I smoke after work, not during.......I understand there is a time for work and a time for play.

I need to check out that forum.

Good day to you!
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
128 posts, read 377,192 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
So weed smokers is the counter argument to those that seek God and/or are religious? I don't get that analogy too much. Some people seek God with fantastic results, regardless of their hypocracy and conflict.
No, they are not the counter argument but you proved my point in that same paragraph. Just like many people fare very well with religion and get good results from it (we all know when things go to the extreme though...ala religious cults) many people can smoke weed and not become worthless, more than most would think simply because of its legal status and people not being able to be open about it.

Quote:
So, are you gonna make the argument that you are an outstanding citizen because you smoke weed or despite it? I'd like to understand that a bit more.
Despite it The only time it has ever interfered with my life is when I was too high to go to the store to get soda lol. But seriously, some people do allow it to interfere with their daily life and become the stereotypical potheads and those are the ones that are generally more open about their use of it. You probably know a lot of people who smoke, maybe on a regular basis or maybe just intermittently, but because they are afraid of being ostracized, stereotyped, or even arrested they are secretive about it.

Quote:
Let's say that you're an employer and you've got two equally qualified candidates. One passes a drug test and one fails. What do you do? That's a right now real... factual, believable situation.
If I was the employer? It would depend on the job for one...if it was a job involving 24-hour call or emergency services I would have to defer to the non-user simply because of public safety issues. If it were a "normal" job I would hire the user (provided it was just weed that showed up, we can discuss my views on other drugs and the workplace another time, I don't want to type that much right now lol) because I am familiar with the BS discrimination we deal with every day so long as they did not come to work high and were performing at acceptable levels. Also, knowing that the employee smoked weed I would think that their drinking penchance was a bit lower than non-smokers and the chance of them coming in with a hangover and being worthless that morning/day are slimmer. Some jobs you simply can not perform while you are high and supervisors will notice quite quickly that something is not right. I hope that's a clear enough explanation, I know it may sound crazy to non-smokers but c'est la vie.

Quote:
I've worked with guys who smoke weed and I'm just sick of being around them... having to room with them, etc. They get high during work... and can continue to do remarkable work... so long as they don't interact with any customers or have to make any changes or decisions. In otherwords, they have a hard time acting on their feet and fixing things.
Exactly what I said above, some jobs you simply can not perform acceptably when high. The people you are referring to are NOT responsible smokers and I do not believe they represent the majority of smokers out there. That behavior would bother me too and I don't blame you for being sick of it. However, since you KNOW they are getting high on the job why don't you mention it to your supervisor? I hate to see people get in trouble over MJ but just like with alcohol you have to draw the line somewhere...being inebriated at work is NOT acceptable and not responsible use.

Quote:
They have to sneak off every 20 minutes to get high, and they lie about it. At the hotel/motel, they like to get non-smoking rooms and blow the smoke out a window or into a bathroom vent. I'm sick of it. They never ever see how addicted they are or how selfish they are.
One comment here...at the hotel/motel what concern is it to you? Unless you are rooming with them it doesn't matter although they should get a smoking room BUT sometimes those rooms are limited availability as they often double as "pet friendly" rooms and are simply unavailable. They can't exactly go outside like a cigarette smoker would as they stand a much higher chance of getting in trouble...if it were legal that would not be an issue.

Quote:
Don't think you're addicted? Then quit for 22 days straight right now and tell me how that goes. And don't compare it to booze. We've heard that argument. It may be better than booze.
Why do you assume that because I have used MJ that I am automatically addicted? Do you think because someone drinks a beer they are an alcoholic? There is use and there is abuse...apparently you don't understand the difference judging by your entire post because you seem to think EVERY smoker is like your irresponsible coworkers.

Besides, how would I prove to you I did not smoke for 22 days? Kind of pointless isn't it? I could simply lie to you and you'd never know the difference. For the record though, in my younger, reckless college days when I was a very heavy smoker (I was high for half my college career, mostly the latter half, and still managed to get my engineering degree ) I ended up quitting for 8 months and felt fine...no better with it, no worse without it. Sorry to burst your bubble that everyone will feel better if they don't smoke.

Quote:
But until it replaces booze and gets a gov't stamp on it, it's a moot point. It's illegal. It's illegal to buy and use the way that most people do.
Which goes back to my post about WHY it is illegal...it's not illegal because it is dangerous or addictive, it's illegal because 60 years ago someone with a political agenda got a hard-on for a power play and used MJ as a scapegoat to further his personal agenda. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it should be...how often do you hear about courts overturning laws and rulings? Knowing that it was made illegal the way it was it amazes me how many people don't do the right thing and either A) tell the government to allow new studies to be done on it and/or B) vote to have it's legal status changed to that of alcohol.

Quote:
If you want to open an argument up about why it's illegal, I think the health and wellness or Great Debates forum has some good ones.
Argument?? There is no argument about WHY...it's in black and white print for anyone who chooses to read it, heck, I've already paraphrased it for those who don't want to search it out. And honestly, until the government comes out and admits it has lied about the effects of MJ I don't see many anti-MJ people changing their minds because of what I write on an internet forum. I used to debate this all the time when I was younger but over the years I learned that usually it's a waste of calories and time because people don't want to believe that their government has yet again lied to them about something AND/OR they think that all pot smokers are irresponsible, useless, and stupid and nothing will change that even if they found out their idol/hero smoked no matter how successful that person is.
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: The 719
13,628 posts, read 21,483,824 times
Reputation: 13281
Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
...However, since you KNOW they are getting high on the job why don't you mention it to your supervisor? I hate to see people get in trouble over MJ but just like with alcohol you have to draw the line somewhere...being inebriated at work is NOT acceptable and not responsible use....
Well... they worked hard and played hard. The supervisor was my brother and he probably smoked weed with them before. But he didn't assume they'd be so stupid as to take it with them through airports and across Mexico border and back and otherwise, put me... a non-weed smoker... at risk too. This is why I like to sit on my AGHGHGHG$$ at work on my computer than being with these stupid knuckleheads who probably ARE addicts. And yes, the weed is better than the booze and the other drugs they sometimes take, but it ain't that good either.

They always always start off as non addicts. Then a few days to a week later, they don't care where they light up. I worked with a guy who, while installing a cleanroom floor, lit up right in the cleanroom. So... it's amazing what blockheads do when your not looking. That includes blockheads that poke smot too.

Quote:
One comment here...at the hotel/motel what concern is it to you? Unless you are rooming with them it doesn't matter although they should get a smoking room BUT sometimes those rooms are limited availability as they often double as "pet friendly" rooms and are simply unavailable. They can't exactly go outside like a cigarette smoker would as they stand a much higher chance of getting in trouble...if it were legal that would not be an issue.
blahblahblah! Sometimes we just gotta room together. They are from Florida and they think California is cold so these wussies won't even go outside to smoke a cigarette, much less a doob.

Quote:
Do you think because someone drinks a beer they are an alcoholic?
You need to ummm... just google my username and alcoholic sometime and you'll see exactly where I stand on alcohol.

I'm not an addict expert. I only know my experience with weed. When I did it, it was hard to find. When I quit, it was hard to stop, but not near has hard as quitting Copenhagen.

Quote:
Sorry to burst your bubble that everyone will feel better if they don't smoke.
Well hallelouya! Ain't that the truth? When I stopped drinking, that's exactly when my problem started. But I found a fix for that. Don't know about the weed. I wasn't an addict, so I just quit. But it wasn't easy.


Quote:
Argument?? There is no argument about WHY...
I wasn't going to even use the word "argument". I was gonna use another word, just forgot.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,651,296 times
Reputation: 1681
Moderator cut: orphaned, remark has been deleted/ and off topic, topic is marijuana laws...
Quote:
Originally Posted by breaksraver13 View Post
And yes I am an outstanding citizen even though I smoke weed........I volunteer for charity events through work, stay active in my community, and volunteer with the forestry service.
But you're an admitted illegal drug user. Being a criminal and a substance abuser is mutually exclusive with being "an outstanding citizen."

Quote:
Originally Posted by breaksraver13 View Post
I'm not quitting $hit to prove to you or to anyone else ANYTHING.
Spoken just like an addict.

Last edited by katzenfreund; 04-22-2009 at 09:48 PM..
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
2,221 posts, read 4,651,296 times
Reputation: 1681
Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
Bob...about the "gateway" drug thing, tell me this. What do kids often do prior to trying pot? Alcohol. What drug are they given while growing up? Caffeine. Before that...it's sugar. What about the parents who put their kids on amphetamines for ADD? So where do you draw the line at what exactly was the substance that started them down that path?
I've never seen statistics that correlate coffee drinking with hard drug use. I have seen studies that do, however, strongly correlate use of marijuana with use of harder drugs. No, everyone doesn't move on, but many do, and in large enough numbers to implicate marijuana use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
What they failed to tell you, either knowingly or out of ignorance, is that there are these things in the plant form called metabolites (someone correct me if that's the wrong term) that alter the effects of the THC so that it "behaves" differently from pure THC extract. Just like lab made mescaline experiences are different than those from actual peyote.
A metabolyte is a chemical by-product of the process of being metabolized in the body, it's not something contained in the plant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
Another aspect that is not often considered is nausea. Nausea is one of the main side effects of chemotherapy and one of the symptoms that medicinal MJ can help with when other methods fail. However, if you're already sick and can't keep anything down how is taking a pill and puking it up before it is digested useful? One thing us Westerners seem to have a problem with is ingesting any substance in any method other than orally (or anally in regards to suppositories)...why?
Of course it's considered, it's the primary argument the medicinal MJ crowd uses. What the literature you're reading fails to mention is the use of a wide variety of alternative delivery mechanisms: transdermal patches, aerosol inhalants, subcutaneous time-released meds, etc...sucking in the smoke from burning weeds is hardly a medically advisable means of delivery of a drug. Would you also advocate licking a moldy cantaloupe as an alternative to taking penicillin pills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
Btw bob, are you familiar with how the push for MJ prohibition gained it's massive surge?
I'm aware, and uninterested. That's politics. I think many of us still oppose its use because we've seen people that were otherwise promising turn themselves into dullards with the motivation of a hound dog on a 100 degree summer afternoon. MY push for excluding users of marijuana from employment is based on seeing how the people I knew that used that crap grew not to give a rat's a** about much of anything except the next party and where the next score was coming from. I cannot trust somebody playing with that crap to work for me doing anything that requires attention to detail and/or a sense of responsibility for their work and those affected by it. In fact, I can't trust many of those folks to even show up for work two days in a row.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edesign View Post
Unfortunately since MJ is a Schedule I drug that means that it is almost impossible to get permission to perform medical studies with it.
Bulldoodle. It might be impossible for YOU to get permission to do a medical study. OTOH, it might be impossible for you to get permission to do brain surgery on your neighbor's cat, too.
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