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Old 06-28-2017, 08:59 AM
 
9,795 posts, read 7,603,775 times
Reputation: 24362

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
It depends on if the immigrants already have family in the country or not. If they don't, I'd assume they'd at least try to hire whomever is qualified, though bias toward their own nationality could of course come into play, just as Americans are biased towards other Americans. Even so, if those immigrants were hired by immigrants, there is no net increase in unemployment because immigrants maketh the jobs and immigrants filleth the jobs. Or maybe immigrants maketh the jobs and immigrants filleth some of the jobs, and citizens filleth some others. In the latter case, there is net gain of jobs available to Americans.
Where do they get their customers? From existing businesses owned by citizens who are paying salaries and taxes. Who then go out of business or lay off employees.
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:26 AM
 
18,495 posts, read 15,479,782 times
Reputation: 16163
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
So you're saying that laws don't apply. Noted.

I'll be over later to come into your home and take what I want. Don't bother calling the cops, since your definition of stealing pre-supposes the legitimacy of current legal criteria.
Your argument makes an improper analogy between something which is illegal but of debatable moral value, and something that is not under debate (i.e. private property rights). If you want to argue that there is no morally meaningful concept of real and personal property, start your own thread and I'll join. But as things stand, this is irrelevant because I am not advocating allowing immigrants in to confiscate public property and remove it from the country, which is the only true analogy to your proposed burglary.

Your line of reasoning is also fundamentally flawed in that it attempts to suppress any disagreement with the law and casts any disagreement with any law as being equivalent to complete anarchism. This is deeply problematic because if taken to the extreme, this mentality will, ironically, CAUSE anarchism (or at least a revolution) because those in power would simply tell us what's right and wrong, and WE THE SHEEPLE will simply abide. There would be no defense against exploitation of the people by those in power, apart from the power to vote, which would become ineffective once a point is reached that only dictators would be running. You must be able to question laws, the alternative is absolute dictatorship and totalitarianism.

We have the first amendment for a reason. Whether you admit it or not, civil dissent and disagreement is absolutely critical to the preservation of democracy. And if I must point it out, the first amendment is ALSO A LAW!

Last edited by ncole1; 06-28-2017 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:42 AM
 
18,495 posts, read 15,479,782 times
Reputation: 16163
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre View Post
It's okay to insult citizens, it's okay to insult foreigners who want to come to the US legally.

But it's not okay to make illegals feel bad, wow!
You are making a false analogy between insulting and oppressive. I am NOT advocating that people who are insulted by pro-illegal-immigration views be denied any civil rights. Insulting is okay, oppressive is not.
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:48 AM
 
18,495 posts, read 15,479,782 times
Reputation: 16163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Lover 21 View Post
Your analogy is flawed.


A better one would be to stick with the moonshine analogy. By not distinguishing between legal and illegal immigrants, you are advocating letting everyone in. Criminals running from the law in their own countries, disease-carriers, people who have previously been deported, etc.


This is akin to lumping all alcohol together and saying you don't want to discriminate against alcohol that was brewed out in the woods somewhere and is potentially lethal.
No, I am not advocating letting all immigrants in. I am saying that perhaps some that are not let in under current laws should be. In other words, I am saying that the cutoff point is in the wrong place, not that there shouldn't be a cutoff point.
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Old 06-28-2017, 09:51 AM
 
18,495 posts, read 15,479,782 times
Reputation: 16163
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Where do they get their customers? From existing businesses owned by citizens who are paying salaries and taxes. Who then go out of business or lay off employees.
You are forgetting that immigrants are customers too.
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
3,040 posts, read 4,983,785 times
Reputation: 3422
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncole1 View Post
I am talking about all immigrants collectively. Legal and illegal.

Let me make an analogy. Imagine, hypothetically, that the drinking age had been raised to 47. There were many sources which looked at the health outcomes of legal drinking vs. "illegal drinking", where "illegal" drinking included both drinking under age 47 and drinking beverages that were brewed, distilled, or sold illegally ("moonshine"). The sources all said that illegal drinking carries much higher risks of causing adverse health outcomes than legal drinking. Because of this, it would be argued that there is no Prohibition; rather, we limit drinking to only "legal" drinking and ban "illegal drinking".

Do you see what the problem is in this scenario? The problem is that by insisting on the division between legal and illegal, you are lumping together all the cases that are in violation of the rules set by the government, and by so doing, you make the legitimacy of the cutoff points or criteria in the law almost uncritiqueable.

For this reason, I do not, and will not, specify "legal" or "illegal" immigrants, because this artificially frames the discussion in a way that essentially pre-supposes the legitimacy of current legal criteria, and thus amounts to circular reasoning.
Ncole1, I think you are really confused, an immigrant is a person who is in this country legally, there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant, they are illegal aliens. Illegal aliens have never filed for immigration status and therefore can not be immigrants.

Just who has the right to set the rules on who can and can not come into this country? Second, do we follow those rules or not?

So you chose to not to specify a difference between Legal and Illegal immigrants, then we should do away with immigration laws all together. We can open our borders to anyone choosing the come here and after a couple of billion people arrive we can be a third world country just like the ones they fled from. Then everyone will be happy, right?
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Old 06-28-2017, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Chicago area
18,754 posts, read 11,737,193 times
Reputation: 64091
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvana07 View Post
I guess my comment will hold some value here, being an ex-immigrant to the USA.
I am an Indian, have lived in the USA for nearly 5 years on a work-visa, and have a kid who is a US citizen by birth.

1. I believe that there is a separate visa for “job creatorsâ€. People who wish to create jobs can apply under it.
2. Response below.
3. I lived in the white-bread country (Central WI) for more than 4 years, and nearly 6 months on the East Coast (with lots of brown people around). Guess what- I would take central WI any day over the East Coast despite the brutal winters, just because people are nice and warm, pretty unlike the East coast. And while in WI, no one ever used the “T word"* with me, nor did I ever feel that I was prejudiced against based upon my skin color or the accent of spoken English.
4. No experience on this.
5. Response below.
6. If this is regarding H4 holders (dependents of H1B holders) not being able to work, it is a choice. Everyone that I know who has applied for H1B knows that their dependents cannot work in the USA. It is up to people to decide if they want to move to the States knowing they will be essentially on one income. It is not like the rules have been changed mid-way.

The OP is either a smart attempt at trolling, or the grand vision of someone living in a “no boundaries†utopia. Back in the real world, things do not work this way.

As an immigrant, I understood that being given a chance to work in the US was an opportunity for me, not a right. I could not have demanded that the US let me in.

I am not a US citizen, so even though I had rights as a US resident, I had no rights to demand the US govt. or people to bend over backwards to make me happy. So, I couldn’t go around asking the government to ban beef from supermarkets because I am a Hindu and eating of beef hurts my religious sentiments. It was up to me to assimilate in the existing culture and not the other way.

Oh, and while I am in the US, I am also subjected to the laws of the country. If I don’t like it, I can choose to go back or not travel to the US at all.

Regarding #5 in the OP, there is a proverb that states “Charity begins at homeâ€. Enough said.

*T word= Terrorist


We have Hindu friends that have lived here for nearly ten years. They also have an American born four year old. She is trying to get a work visa and has paid her attorney around 3k for nothing. He works as a manager for a restaurant. They scrape by. It's not a easy life. They did receive some financial assistance for their daughters preschool although I don't know how that works. They're good people and are working towards becoming citizens.

There's another argument and I'm not sure if it effects our economy or not. Her husband works with this poor soul that left his family ten years ago to work in the restaurant industry. He watched his kids grow up via skype. He lives in a tiny apartment with other men in the same situation. He sends nearly all of his money out of the country to support his family. This has been going on with other ethnic groups for decades as well. That money is gone forever.

Lets not mention the H1B visa abuse that left American's unemployed in favor of hiring Indian workers for less money. Did most of that money go back to India? Was that fair to our American workers?

I understand the need to take care of family and the desperation for some. It breaks my heart, but, if it hurts our country and our citizens, then I can't support it. Nor can I support anyone coming here against the law and expecting to make a life here at our expense. I guess in a way it is dehumanizing. How can you turn away someone who is hungry? That's a horrible situation to be in.

Emotionally I would love to take them all in and feed the world, but, realistically, I can't. There comes a time when we all just have to worry about our own. That includes countries as well.
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Clarence, NY- New Haven, CT
574 posts, read 379,403 times
Reputation: 738
Dehumanization of immigrants how? the only ones that i could "dehumanize" are illegal aliens (a.k.a. CRIMINALS) and even then i wouldnt call it dehumanizing.... Come here LEGALLY, and be a productive human to society and western culture and then I dont care who/what you are tbh

Last edited by toosie; 06-28-2017 at 02:27 PM.. Reason: Please don't sign your posts
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,230 posts, read 1,702,599 times
Reputation: 2434
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy View Post
We have Hindu friends that have lived here for nearly ten years. They also have an American born four year old. She is trying to get a work visa and has paid her attorney around 3k for nothing. He works as a manager for a restaurant. They scrape by. It's not a easy life. They did receive some financial assistance for their daughters preschool although I don't know how that works. They're good people and are working towards becoming citizens.

There's another argument and I'm not sure if it effects our economy or not. Her husband works with this poor soul that left his family ten years ago to work in the restaurant industry. He watched his kids grow up via skype. He lives in a tiny apartment with other men in the same situation. He sends nearly all of his money out of the country to support his family. This has been going on with other ethnic groups for decades as well. That money is gone forever.

Lets not mention the H1B visa abuse that left American's unemployed in favor of hiring Indian workers for less money. Did most of that money go back to India? Was that fair to our American workers?

I understand the need to take care of family and the desperation for some. It breaks my heart, but, if it hurts our country and our citizens, then I can't support it. Nor can I support anyone coming here against the law and expecting to make a life here at our expense. I guess in a way it is dehumanizing. How can you turn away someone who is hungry? That's a horrible situation to be in.

Emotionally I would love to take them all in and feed the world, but, realistically, I can't. There comes a time when we all just have to worry about our own. That includes countries as well.
I'm not Indian but it seems that most of their money stay in the US. A lot of Indians invest their savings in small businesses like gas station. Sometimes they hire Indians who are not authorized to work in the US, though.

Actually, more affluent immigrants bring money to the US to buy properties and invest in financial markets. In fact, the US has attracted more foreign investment than any other country.

Overall, I think this is not a significant issue at all. The refugees from Middle East is a way greater issue.

If my memory serves, Indian immigrants have the highest average income among all ethnic groups. Do they hurt American workers? Debatable. Do you have to support them? If you are talking about tax, the chances are they have paid much more than you do.
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Old 06-28-2017, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,363 posts, read 23,952,006 times
Reputation: 32648
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre View Post
...If you are talking about tax, the chances are they have paid much more than you do.
Not so sure about that. We had Indian ESL students in my schools, and some were quite successful, but others were downright poor.
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