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1. Some immigrants want to take jobs, and others want to create jobs, or be self-employed. If concern over the job market were the real reason for all the red tape that immigrants face on education and jobs, then those that want to be self-employed would not be treated the same way or with so much red tape and bureaucratic paperwork and complex rules. Yet, they have to put up with it too. Thus the jobs argument appears to be a red herring and the real issue is not jobs, but xenophobia.
2. The travel ban and other restrictions cause immigrants to be inconvenienced in a major way. If citizens were treated like this, there would be enormous outcry. But when it's immigrants, it is somehow acceptable to do this.
3. It is socially acceptable to stereotype immigrants in ways that would be considered hate speech if applied to citizens. For example, it is acceptable to say that immigrants want to damage the country, or to speak as though they do without saying it explicitly. If things like this were said about citizens, it would be considered bigotry. Yet there is no scientific evidence that immigrants are more susceptible to violent actions than citizens.
4. The citizenship test requires a high level of knowledge about civics that many Americans do not possess. This is reminiscent of the literacy tests from several decades ago that were used to deny African-Americans the ability to vote.
5. If someone flees domestic violence or gang violence in America, many social programs are available for them, even when it inconveniences others or costs them money to pay for. But when people flee even worse conditions overseas, we don't accept even the slightest and most trivial inconvenience to allow them to escape such conditions.
6. Denying immigrants jobs is discrimination on the basis of national origin. Yet not only is it legal, but it is legally required. When someone says that discrimination based on national origin is prohibited, they are dehumanizing immigrants by speaking as though they aren't even people.
1. Some immigrants want to take jobs, and others want to create jobs, or be self-employed. If concern over the job market were the real reason for all the red tape that immigrants face on education and jobs, then those that want to be self-employed would not be treated the same way or with so much red tape and bureaucratic paperwork and complex rules. Yet, they have to put up with it too. Thus the jobs argument appears to be a red herring and the real issue is not jobs, but xenophobia.
2. The travel ban and other restrictions cause immigrants to be inconvenienced in a major way. If citizens were treated like this, there would be enormous outcry. But when it's immigrants, it is somehow acceptable to do this.
3. It is socially acceptable to stereotype immigrants in ways that would be considered hate speech if applied to citizens. For example, it is acceptable to say that immigrants want to damage the country, or to speak as though they do without saying it explicitly. If things like this were said about citizens, it would be considered bigotry. Yet there is no scientific evidence that immigrants are more susceptible to violent actions than citizens.
4. The citizenship test requires a high level of knowledge about civics that many Americans do not possess. This is reminiscent of the literacy tests from several decades ago that were used to deny African-Americans the ability to vote.
5. If someone flees domestic violence or gang violence in America, many social programs are available for them, even when it inconveniences others or costs them money to pay for. But when people flee even worse conditions overseas, we don't accept even the slightest and most trivial inconvenience to allow them to escape such conditions.
6. Denying immigrants jobs is discrimination on the basis of national origin. Yet not only is it legal, but it is legally required. When someone says that discrimination based on national origin is prohibited, they are dehumanizing immigrants by speaking as though they aren't even people.
Ncole1, first and foremost Immigration into the United States is a privilege it is not a right. Constitutional rights do not extend beyond the borders the the United States. People who request to immigrate to the United States are normally people who want to live here and to enjoy the freedoms we have in this country. This is why we have immigration laws, please see the The Immigration and Nationality Act, this defines who can and can not be admitted into the United States.
There is a huge difference between a Refugee and a person seeking immigration, an immigrant is someone who applies for entry and hopes to become a U.S. citizen, a refugee is someone escaping in their county based on, economic, political or dangerous conditions and their stay is temporary. A refugee is not an immigrant and when conditions in their country changes then they are to be returned to their country.
Teddy Roosevelt said it best: We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an
American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin.
But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn’t doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. . . We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people.
1. Some immigrants want to take jobs, and others want to create jobs, or be self-employed. If concern over the job market were the real reason for all the red tape that immigrants face on education and jobs, then those that want to be self-employed would not be treated the same way or with so much red tape and bureaucratic paperwork and complex rules. Yet, they have to put up with it too. Thus the jobs argument appears to be a red herring and the real issue is not jobs, but xenophobia.
2. The travel ban and other restrictions cause immigrants to be inconvenienced in a major way. If citizens were treated like this, there would be enormous outcry. But when it's immigrants, it is somehow acceptable to do this.
3. It is socially acceptable to stereotype immigrants in ways that would be considered hate speech if applied to citizens. For example, it is acceptable to say that immigrants want to damage the country, or to speak as though they do without saying it explicitly. If things like this were said about citizens, it would be considered bigotry. Yet there is no scientific evidence that immigrants are more susceptible to violent actions than citizens.
4. The citizenship test requires a high level of knowledge about civics that many Americans do not possess. This is reminiscent of the literacy tests from several decades ago that were used to deny African-Americans the ability to vote.
5. If someone flees domestic violence or gang violence in America, many social programs are available for them, even when it inconveniences others or costs them money to pay for. But when people flee even worse conditions overseas, we don't accept even the slightest and most trivial inconvenience to allow them to escape such conditions.
6. Denying immigrants jobs is discrimination on the basis of national origin. Yet not only is it legal, but it is legally required. When someone says that discrimination based on national origin is prohibited, they are dehumanizing immigrants by speaking as though they aren't even people.
1.Red tape is actually not that bad in the U.S. Try Europe, you may need 4 months or more just to get a driver license.
2.Travel ban = you can't come here. It's a ban, not a inconvenience.
3.Yes, you are right. Every country puts its people first.
4.The citizenship test is actually very easy, but only permanent residents(green card holders) are allowed to take the test.
The test is really the easiest part, obtaining the permanent residence is a zillion times harder.
5. Yes, people are starving, they need food. But who is going to foot the bill?
6. I'm confused. Are you a liberal who believes immigrant = illegal immigrant? If you are a legal immigrant, you are allowed to work. If you are illegal or you are on a non-immigrant visa, you are not considered an immigrant.
Ncole1, first and foremost Immigration into the United States is a privilege it is not a right. Constitutional rights do not extend beyond the borders the the United States. People who request to immigrate to the United States are normally people who want to live here and to enjoy the freedoms we have in this country. This is why we have immigration laws, please see the The Immigration and Nationality Act, this defines who can and can not be admitted into the United States.
There is a huge difference between a Refugee and a person seeking immigration, an immigrant is someone who applies for entry and hopes to become a U.S. citizen, a refugee is someone escaping in their county based on, economic, political or dangerous conditions and their stay is temporary. A refugee is not an immigrant and when conditions in their country changes then they are to be returned to their country.
Teddy Roosevelt said it best: We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an
American and assimilates himself to us he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birth-place or origin.
But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn’t doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. . . We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, of American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding-house; and we have room for but one soul loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people.
And yet the US has no official national language. The phenomenon of segregation and subculture is not unique to immigrants, we have lots of subculture among citizens too and it seems to be embraced, or at least possible to embrace. Why is a subculture of immigrants so different?
Also, if lots of European countries can handle multilingualism, why shouldn't we be able to do likewise?
1.Red tape is actually not that bad in the U.S. Try Europe, you may need 4 months or more just to get a driver license.
Try telling that to my colleagues who have to jump through all manner of hoops because they don't even have Green Cards yet. They have to do things like delay graduation and take pointless classes in order to not ruin their chances of continuing their current career path in the US. The waitlist for Green Cards is very very long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre
2.Travel ban = you can't come here. It's a ban, not a inconvenience.
It's both. A ban that lasts for a day and is lifted could be characterized as an inconvenience to those impacted by it. For longer periods of time, of course, it is more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre
3.Yes, you are right. Every country puts its people first.
And this makes it morally acceptable to treat the others as having almost no interests at all? I am not talking about what countries do, I am talking about what they ought to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre
4.The citizenship test is actually very easy, but only permanent residents(green card holders) are allowed to take the test.
The test is really the easiest part, obtaining the permanent residence is a zillion times harder.
I agree with you in the sense I think you mean, but keep in mind a lot of native-born citizens, who have a high school diploma or above, have difficulty with the test. You could, of course, argue that this is more an education issue than an immigration one, but this is what I meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre
5. Yes, people are starving, they need food. But who is going to foot the bill?
Anybody that can foot the bill for citizens can foot the bill for immigrants, as long as the number isn't too large at any one time. Now of course we may discuss what number is (or should count as) "too large". I would argue that for humanitarian reasons, we should be liberal in assigning this number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodHombre
6. I'm confused. Are you a liberal who believes immigrant = illegal immigrant? If you are a legal immigrant, you are allowed to work. If you are illegal or you are on a non-immigrant visa, you are not considered an immigrant.
The spouse or another family member of someone in the country on an education or work visa is often allowed in with the main visa holder, but not allowed to go to work or school or start a business.
And yet the US has no official national language. The phenomenon of segregation and subculture is not unique to immigrants, we have lots of subculture among citizens too and it seems to be embraced, or at least possible to embrace. Why is a subculture of immigrants so different?
Also, if lots of European countries can handle multilingualism, why shouldn't we be able to do likewise?
Yes, we do have a large number of ethnic groups, however, they are still Americans first. There is nothing wrong with them speaking their ethnic language, but they should learn English, it is the language spoken in the United States and it only show respect for the country in which you have chosen to live in.
This country cannot simply swing the doors open and welcome in all the people who would like to come to America. The numbers of those people are almost unfathomable, as demonstrated by the old lottery system.
We have limited resources (try living in most of the arid west) and the balance of what is healthy for us and our environment is at question.
It is not our responsibility to save the world. Take Sudan as just one example. It is not our responsibility to save Sudan or its citizens. It is Sudan's responsibility.
When I read these occasional threads that you invent, I often wonder if you are an intelligent troll (because you do write well), or just a person who seems to favor change for the sake of change.
When this country can (and does) take care of its own poor and sick and uneducated, then -- and not until then -- will I be willing to seriously listen to someone suggesting we take care of another country's poor and sick and uneducated. Until that time comes, I suggest you invest your money in charities that help those in other countries while they are in their countries.
Try telling that to my colleagues who have to jump through all manner of hoops because they don't even have Green Cards yet. They have to do things like delay graduation and take pointless classes in order to not ruin their chances of continuing their current career path in the US. The waitlist for Green Cards is very very long.
It's both. A ban that lasts for a day and is lifted could be characterized as an inconvenience to those impacted by it. For longer periods of time, of course, it is more.
And this makes it morally acceptable to treat the others as having almost no interests at all? I am not talking about what countries do, I am talking about what they ought to do.
I agree with you in the sense I think you mean, but keep in mind a lot of native-born citizens, who have a high school diploma or above, have difficulty with the test. You could, of course, argue that this is more an education issue than an immigration one, but this is what I meant.
Anybody that can foot the bill for citizens can foot the bill for immigrants, as long as the number isn't too large at any one time. Now of course we may discuss what number is (or should count as) "too large". I would argue that for humanitarian reasons, we should be liberal in assigning this number.
The spouse or another family member of someone in the country on an education or work visa is often allowed in with the main visa holder, but not allowed to go to work or school or start a business.
You can't just deport native born citizens, even if they are illiterate. I don't think you support eugenics. To be honest, you have to be very dumb to fail the test unless you don't speak English.
What they ought to do? This is a great question. Let me put it this way, in India, there are over 1 billion Indians who want to move to the U.S. For many of them, the citizenship test is a piece of cake. Are you ready to accept 1 billion Indian immigrants? and maybe another 1 billion Chinese? and another 2 billion people from other third world countries? Is that number big enough for you?
It really boils down to two questions. How many immigrants can you handle? Who can come and who can't? Again, there are 1 billion Indians who want to be American. What do you think? Merit based? Need based? The liberals prefer need based immigration policy, which will bring tens of millions low-skill uneducated immigrants who cannot support themselves.
Humans are selfish, Most Americans want the government to put Americans first. Someone has to lose his job, either you or a poor third world worker. What's your choice?
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