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Old 06-29-2017, 03:51 PM
 
7,081 posts, read 3,783,727 times
Reputation: 10570

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Oh, yes; I forgot about childcare... Some of the campers would work in the daycare center, caring for the children, and Depo shots would be mandatory while receiving benefits. I realize "camp" now has a negative connotation, but it needn't.


The problem with the "temporary handout" is that it's not temporary; it's generational. "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, and he eats for life." And he has the satisfaction of catching his own fish besides.

 
Old 06-29-2017, 03:54 PM
Status: "In an Involuntary Time Warp" (set 23 days ago)
 
7,849 posts, read 10,151,521 times
Reputation: 11403
Pure "will," "conviction," "goals," "direction," "plans," "vision," put in any other words you want--all can go awry. You have so many unforeseen things that happen in life, that no amount of any or many of the above, can help with. Sickness, loss of job, cut in income, loss of insurance, inability to get insurance for a variety of reasons, divorce, mental illness, addiction, children in trouble, family problems. real estate crashes, investments gone bad--fill in the blank. All of these can impact your plans in life.

I don't look at the poor as "lesser" at all. Maybe they're our teachers? Pride goeth before a fall. Be humble about your life and what you have.
 
Old 06-29-2017, 03:55 PM
 
7,081 posts, read 3,783,727 times
Reputation: 10570
Did I say they were "lesser"? I'm saying to respect them enough to expect something from them; not just throw them a bone and pat them on the head as if they aren't capable of better. I've been poor and pulled myself out, and they can, too. If not, they can at least have the dignity of being self-sustaining within a framework designed to safeguard against the usual pitfalls we see in the current welfare system and to benefit both the individuals involved and society as a whole. Think of a day in which you've been productive and accomplished something you consider worthwhile and compare that with a day you just frittered away eating junk food and watching TV or surfing the net. Which do YOU prefer? Sometimes you have to be "cruel" to be kind. Freedom is great, but it comes with certain responsibilities, and some clearly don't know how to make the best use of it. Of course no one "has" to participate in this set up - it's still a free country - but they won't have free money mailed to private apartments (receive benefits).


I propose that everyone should work for what they get, one way or another.

Last edited by otterhere; 06-29-2017 at 04:04 PM..
 
Old 06-29-2017, 04:21 PM
 
4,554 posts, read 2,024,076 times
Reputation: 5980
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Currently, taxpayers lose half their paychecks to pay for so-called "entitlement" programs. Those on welfare get a subsidized private apartment; food stamps (which can used to buy fattening junk food); a check to buy cigs, beer, and lottery tickets; money enough to have cable TV and Internet; they get extra money for having more kids they can't support; many just sit around all day or get into trouble (gangs, drugs, crime), and the cycle continues for generations. Those in homeless shelters wander the streets of the city all day randomly.

So I have a solution. You set up essentially camps in the country. Everyone has everything they need: food (communal dining; only healthy diets), shelter (same-sex bunkhouses, trailers for families), and everyone works on the farm all day growing vegetables, raising livestock, perhaps making marketable craft items. No one sits around idle. Reasonable health care is provided, as are opportunities to get a GED and job training.

If they want better, they can do better ("poor" isn't an immutable state, as many seem to think); if not, continue there, where they are self-sustaining and not a drain on society. Seems like a decent life to me.

In the 1930s, we had the CCC, and those men say it was the best time of their lives. They had all they needed to live and were productive. "Something for nothing" demoralizes both the giver and the receiver.

Thoughts?
Sounds like Communist China under Mao...
 
Old 06-29-2017, 04:23 PM
 
4,554 posts, read 2,024,076 times
Reputation: 5980
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Not "education" as in a four-year degree in women's studies; JOB TRAINING. But you have to want it or perhaps be "encouraged" to want it. People do what is in their best interest to do; is this rocket science?
Hmmm, would this work for those coal miners who are insisting that the mines be reopened?
 
Old 06-29-2017, 04:28 PM
 
2,039 posts, read 950,239 times
Reputation: 3542
There are a lot of countries you can immigrate to that don't have any safety nets
Maybe you would be more comfortable there
 
Old 06-29-2017, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Colorado
9,734 posts, read 6,273,073 times
Reputation: 17554
I think that people who receive public assistance should get what they need, and ONLY what they need, and with a plan to get off of assistance and survive without it. And what I more recently saw with the 40-something year old woman I knew, it really seemed like the system she participated in did exactly that. She got training in job skills and placed in a job.

Sadly her older son had serious mental illness and addiction issues, and this kid started showing up at her work (he was 17) and making a loud scene and it got her fired.

Back on assistance she tried to go, and was denied. She ended up going back to the man who beat her and her children, because she couldn't make it on her own. Her problems were absolutely generational. Violence and drugs, growing up in a ghetto in Maryland, then she moved to the sticks, out in Tennessee with this man after having two kids by two other dudes before him. The youngest was the child of rape, but she did not abort him.

What kills me is that there are right leaning folks who want to make it harder, if not impossible, for women to get and be on birth control, to say nothing of abortion, but will rant and rage about paying for babies that the person could not afford. I agree with oh-eve and otterhere on the point of a mandatory Depo Provera shot. Maybe for the men and women both. You know it also functions as "chemical castration" and greatly reduces sex drive, yes?

But I would ask those who are angry about welfare, how many people do you know who are on assistance, and I mean know as in, you know them well enough to tell their stories, as I have done here...? I would ask that people pause before making angry and judgmental assumptions.

I had to pay thousands in income taxes this year. I am more upset at rich people benefiting from my tax dollars, than poor ones. And they do. From war profiteers and military contractors to corrupt politicians scheming ever grander pieces of the pie, they do. I would love for there to be full and independent and ironclad audits, incapable of influence from anyone, that really dug into exactly where America's money goes. I do not think that a big enough portion of mine goes to the poor. But at the same time when I am faced with chances to be generous, out in the wild... I give money to the guy who bangs out a beat on a bucket, the one who plays the guitar, the buskers and street artists. I do not give money to the cardboard sign people.

So even though I kind of agree with some of your principles here, I think I've got a better set of eyes on real life cases and I have more heart for these people and their situations than you seem to.

A lot of the homeless here are US military veterans who got out and had mental health struggles and could not cope with normal life and adapt back to life as a civilian. Should we leave our soldiers out in the cold with no hand to help? The welfare queen might exist, but she is a rare breed, man. Most people are just having a tough time. Since I've been there and I've climbed out, I'm willing to turn around and reach my hand out to help others sometimes if I can.
 
Old 06-29-2017, 04:53 PM
 
507 posts, read 303,868 times
Reputation: 1277
I would say:

1. Severely penalizing corporations who move their manufacturing and service centers overseas which could otherwise be done in the US.
2. Offer free or reduced cost education particularly at a community college and state universities across the board. Encourage universities to eradicate excessive administration which has no direct benefit to academia (which is a massive compared to let's say the 1960s)
3. Encourage the development of affordable housing and low-income housing in all communities. Breaking up ghettos is actually an effective way to reduce poverty overall, especially among children.
4. Actively promote comprehensive sex education and access to reliable birth control to all US students
5. Increase federal spending on elementary/high school education
6. Invest in mass transit to help those who are carless to get access to jobs
 
Old 06-29-2017, 05:00 PM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
33,573 posts, read 51,786,623 times
Reputation: 82994
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Currently, taxpayers lose half their paychecks to pay for so-called "entitlement" programs.

Thoughts?
Not quite true. Right now half of our taxes go for our corrupt healtcare and military spendings.
Spoiler
 
Old 06-29-2017, 05:02 PM
 
2,746 posts, read 3,425,758 times
Reputation: 4254
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Currently, taxpayers lose half their paychecks to pay for so-called "entitlement" programs. Those on welfare get a subsidized private apartment; food stamps (which can used to buy fattening junk food); a check to buy cigs, beer, and lottery tickets; money enough to have cable TV and Internet; they get extra money for having more kids they can't support; many just sit around all day or get into trouble (gangs, drugs, crime), and the cycle continues for generations. Those in homeless shelters wander the streets of the city all day randomly.

So I have a solution. You set up essentially camps in the country. Everyone has everything they need: food (communal dining; only healthy diets), shelter (same-sex bunkhouses, trailers for families), and everyone works on the farm all day growing vegetables, raising livestock, perhaps making marketable craft items. No one sits around idle. Reasonable health care is provided, as are opportunities to get a GED and job training.

If they want better, they can do better ("poor" isn't an immutable state, as many seem to think); if not, continue there, where they are self-sustaining and not a drain on society. Seems like a decent life to me.

In the 1930s, we had the CCC, and those men say it was the best time of their lives. They had all they needed to live and were productive. "Something for nothing" demoralizes both the giver and the receiver.

Thoughts?
Cool the disabled and 90 year old grannies can work the farm. What do we do about the working people who get extra entitlements for nothing?

Also so what do you do with the people who worked for a long time paid into the system but became disabled? They paid into the system to be able to get help from it.

Hopefully after you post this thread you don't become disabled one day and need help because working on your farm is gonna be hard
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