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Old 06-29-2017, 05:09 PM
2,746 posts, read 3,421,309 times
Reputation: 4253


Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Did I say they were "lesser"? I'm saying to respect them enough to expect something from them; not just throw them a bone and pat them on the head as if they aren't capable of better. I've been poor and pulled myself out, and they can, too. If not, they can at least have the dignity of being self-sustaining within a framework designed to safeguard against the usual pitfalls we see in the current welfare system and to benefit both the individuals involved and society as a whole. Think of a day in which you've been productive and accomplished something you consider worthwhile and compare that with a day you just frittered away eating junk food and watching TV or surfing the net. Which do YOU prefer? Sometimes you have to be "cruel" to be kind. Freedom is great, but it comes with certain responsibilities, and some clearly don't know how to make the best use of it. Of course no one "has" to participate in this set up - it's still a free country - but they won't have free money mailed to private apartments (receive benefits).

I propose that everyone should work for what they get, one way or another.
Like the silver spooners that get inheritances from grandparents or parents that passed away. Sure some of them like trump take that money and continue the family business but is that really "work" It's not work when you have millions in the bank with no worries of being poor. It's not work when you don't have to live paycheck to paycheck. Anyone can "work" when they have millions in the bank. The real hard workers are working hard paycheck to paycheck but just cant get ahead. Those are the TRUE working class of society. The people who get up everyday going to a miserable job that never gets them ahead but they still work. Those people deserve a ton of respect not someone who inherits wealth or had their college education paid for by mommy and daddy and everything else.

Old 06-29-2017, 05:59 PM
Location: S.W. British Columbia
6,015 posts, read 5,791,876 times
Reputation: 10479
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post

........ So I have a solution. You set up essentially camps in the country. Everyone has everything they need: food (communal dining; only healthy diets), shelter (same-sex bunkhouses, trailers for families), and everyone works on the farm all day growing vegetables, raising livestock, perhaps making marketable craft items. No one sits around idle. Reasonable health care is provided, as are opportunities to get a GED and job training.

If they want better, they can do better ("poor" isn't an immutable state, as many seem to think); if not, continue there, where they are self-sustaining and not a drain on society. .........


My thought is that everything you described above is exactly what is already done with criminals serving time in prisons.

So I think you are saying you believe that poor people are criminals who should be separated from wealthier society, locked up, their freedom taken away from them, and punished in concentration camps ....... all because they have commit the crime of being poor.

Who is going to pay for and support these prison camps for poor people? Will it be the same tax-payers who already pay for and support the real criminals who are in prisons?

Old 06-29-2017, 06:49 PM
Location: my little town
765 posts, read 242,830 times
Reputation: 869
What we call poverty is the natural state of the human species. The echo chamber of a wealthy class in a wealthy nation shuts out the noises of change. Inability to listen outside the chamber sets up an unwelcome surprise when the whole class drops back into poverty or violent death as sometimes happens in history.
Old 06-29-2017, 06:56 PM
Location: East Coast
2,769 posts, read 1,571,313 times
Reputation: 3993
Spoken like someone with no understanding of how the real world works. I'm always amazed by these dystopian societies that are proposed by ignorant, idealistic, libertarian "conservatives."

I once had a way too long discussion with someone who proposed something very similar in order to implement a society where abortion was outlawed. Children of the people who were too poor to care for them would be taken by the state and raised in institutions, while both parents were similarly institutionalized and forced to work for the state to pay for the "care" of the children.

Scary stuff.
Old 06-29-2017, 07:13 PM
Location: Saint John, IN
10,638 posts, read 3,311,331 times
Reputation: 12748
Originally Posted by Taluffen View Post
I would say:

1. Severely penalizing corporations who move their manufacturing and service centers overseas which could otherwise be done in the US.
2. Offer free or reduced cost education particularly at a community college and state universities across the board. Encourage universities to eradicate excessive administration which has no direct benefit to academia (which is a massive compared to let's say the 1960s)
3. Encourage the development of affordable housing and low-income housing in all communities. Breaking up ghettos is actually an effective way to reduce poverty overall, especially among children.
4. Actively promote comprehensive sex education and access to reliable birth control to all US students
5. Increase federal spending on elementary/high school education
6. Invest in mass transit to help those who are carless to get access to jobs
I agree with all but I CAN"T agree with #3! There is plenty of affordable housing, but Section 8 is a problem. It destroys good neighborhoods! If I pay $500k for my house, I don't want someone on section 8 living next door who pays only $300 for rent!

I don't believe in taking away welfare benefits, but just like unemployment I think it should be temporary and needs to be cut off after a certain amount of time! People, hold on......generations sit on welfare for their entire life. Complaining they can't find a job, they have no schooling, etc, etc. NO ONE paid for my schooling, I worked full time and went to school full time to get where I'm at! I understand situations happen, but there MUST be a cut off! The majority of people living on welfare benefits are not on it temporarily, it's a way of life for them and that is what needs to stop! Other countries don't allow lifetime welfare benefits! Why should we?
Old 06-29-2017, 07:54 PM
507 posts, read 303,379 times
Reputation: 1277
Affordable housing is a huge problem plaguing the US currently so I am not sure I would claim it is readily available. In fact one contributor to the housing crisis was the lack of smaller affordable homes. The majority of homes built in the past 30 years were quite large (2000+ sq ft) and many older "starter homes" were expanded, which also bumps up the cost. Plenty of working class people are priced out of homes and stuck renting. If you live in a major metro, you're probably paying plenty in rent as well. And not building equity and subsequently making retirement harder since many people use their homes as a nest egg, for better or worse.

Keep in mind I am not suggesting a project be built next to your home. Most single family homes are zoned to prevent renting, although I know sometimes people split homes up into apartments if its legal. More likely any apartment complexes in town should allot x amount of apartments available for low-income housing (this is actually done in luxury apartments in NYC). One very big positive is the children living in this arrangement do significantly better in school, and decreases the chance of generational poverty. Poor people also pick up the habits of their wealthier neighbors so many times savings are increased and job opportunities (through connections) are much easier to come by.
Old 06-29-2017, 08:18 PM
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
1,106 posts, read 854,500 times
Reputation: 3060
But you aren't concerned about the $100 billion a year spent on corporate welfare?
Old 06-29-2017, 08:46 PM
865 posts, read 422,477 times
Reputation: 1889
Replace our wasteful welfare system with a negative income tax. Preferably all in cash with no strings in a single yearly lump sum to encourage entrepreneurship.
Old 06-29-2017, 09:04 PM
Location: Gettysburg, PA
1,563 posts, read 1,509,764 times
Reputation: 2750
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Currently, taxpayers lose half their paychecks to pay for so-called "entitlement" programs. Those on welfare get a subsidized private apartment; food stamps (which can used to buy fattening junk food); a check to buy cigs, beer, and lottery tickets; money enough to have cable TV and Internet; they get extra money for having more kids they can't support; many just sit around all day or get into trouble (gangs, drugs, crime), and the cycle continues for generations. Those in homeless shelters wander the streets of the city all day randomly.

So I have a solution. You set up essentially camps in the country. Everyone has everything they need: food (communal dining; only healthy diets), shelter (same-sex bunkhouses, trailers for families), and everyone works on the farm all day growing vegetables, raising livestock, perhaps making marketable craft items. No one sits around idle. Reasonable health care is provided, as are opportunities to get a GED and job training.

If they want better, they can do better ("poor" isn't an immutable state, as many seem to think); if not, continue there, where they are self-sustaining and not a drain on society. Seems like a decent life to me.

In the 1930s, we had the CCC, and those men say it was the best time of their lives. They had all they needed to live and were productive. "Something for nothing" demoralizes both the giver and the receiver.

We all can have our pipe dreams. Seriously though, the problem with your idea is that it makes a lot of sense; sadly, common sense has flown out the window a long, long time ago in government-land. Unfortunately, the corrupt dynasty that is the welfare system will remain in place until this country collapses under the weight of it's own foolishness and gross misconduct.

It is heartbreaking though to see they've got apparently quite a few well-meaning people (my parents being of them) to buy into their propaganda that taking away the welfare programs will leave so many people without a chance at anything in life. The problem however, is that if these people somehow become un-deluded (not likely since they have so much evidence to back up their beliefs) the government will just be like, "well, plan A didn't work (have the people support the welfare system), let's go on to plan B: just do it anyway".

Not sure when we'll all wake up and realize we live under a tyrannical government. Probably not ever.
Old 06-29-2017, 09:25 PM
6,308 posts, read 4,765,469 times
Reputation: 8437
Originally Posted by otterhere View Post
Oh, yes; I forgot about childcare... Some of the campers would work in the daycare center, caring for the children, and Depo shots would be mandatory while receiving benefits. I realize "camp" now has a negative connotation, but it needn't.
Call it a farm.

The problem with the "temporary handout" is that it's not temporary; it's generational. "Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, and he eats for life." And he has the satisfaction of catching his own fish besides.
It would have to be purely voluntary. If you don't take the deal, you qualify for a really limited set of benefits that amount to not starving.

For every sonic_spork hardship case there are 5 or 10 that are more like the members of my family who will never work (no, they're not black) because they've found ways to get benefits that are more valuable than the paycheck from any job that they'd qualify for. Her case should have been taken care of by a church, nonprofit organization, or mutual benefit society.
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