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Old 06-30-2017, 09:54 AM
Status: "In an Involuntary Time Warp" (set 26 days ago)
7,860 posts, read 10,158,141 times
Reputation: 11427


Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
The old welfare debate..The trouble for most of those who are really trying to put forth a reasonable solution to welfare lies in their misunderstanding of who is getting the real benefit. Business has, and always will be, the end depository for all those welfare dollars. Poor people spend every dime they get, so, the "welfare recipient" is simply a transfer vessel for that redistribution of wealth from the government--to business.

As for those who really don't have a clue as to the eligibility and maintenance qualifications of most welfare programs, the new rules spelled out in the TANF reforms certainly put time limits on the program's recipients. Now we hear cries of how we need to reform the reformed programs. The amount of money spent by government on "the other welfare" system, that which has many of the nations wealthiest entities on the public dole, seems to be looked upon as an agreeable expenditure, or at the least one that distributes welfare dollars to working people, but again, business becomes the last stop for those dollars also.

After years of reading the vast amount of posts on this subject it becomes clear that the same people who cry about their money going to those they feel are unworthy, are the same posters who, in other forums, tell of their fabulous ski trips, foreign travel, cool cars and a sundry of claims leading to the conclusion that they are indeed well off when compared to the average working stiff. But, they seem to be obsessing over their share of the nations tax dollars going to anyone they don't approve of.

If we were to color the private citizen welfare dollars red, we'd immediately see the real beneficiaries holding those dollars in their business tills. So, it's an economic phenomenon which gets little attention, we are brainwashed to see the poor as the beneficiary, but follow the money, and voila, it's not in the pocket of the poor at all. The OP's notions of work farms are little more than the dreams of retribution visited upon those he disdains, and more to the point--those who he learned to disdain.

The welfare debate, and all the vitriol surrounding it, is simply evidence of a thorough propaganda campaign which equals throwing a bone to those who feel a need to chew on something--or--somebody. Jim Hightower, the populist writer has a keen sense of things, his mantra was to "follow the money"when looking for answers to our national problems, and in that process, the welfare debate opens into a completely different view of the so called "socialistic" construct we call welfare. Oh, it's a re distributive system alright, but seldom do we hear anyone really drilling down to the bottom of the money trail..Hightower observed the entirety of government as a holding company for the wealthy.

Here's a quote from him on the fact of our lost democracy:

"The corporations don't have to lobby the government anymore. They are the government."

The bottom line in that view is the realization that our so called "public welfare system" is just another funnel in which tax dollars become part of the many redistribution schemes within the framework of government.
Good post.

Old 06-30-2017, 11:23 AM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
Well, actually, when you combine all the entitlement programs -- SSI, food stamps, Medicaid, utility assistance, subsidized housing, AFDC, WIC, etc. -- you an certainly live entirely on welfare. But of course you have all day free to make money under the table, either legally or illegally, too. Lots and lots of "workers" insist on being paid by cash only.
Old 06-30-2017, 11:43 AM
8,111 posts, read 4,457,906 times
Reputation: 8744
We will always have poor, so do nothing, government makes up who poor and who's not, let's just get rid of government
Old 06-30-2017, 12:10 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
I didn't say "put all the agricultural operations out of business"; I said "grow your own food." For YOU to eat, if you're living on one of these farms, so taxpayers don't have to buy it for you, plus it will be healthy and won't make you fat and sick. Win-win!
Old 06-30-2017, 12:17 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
"I do not think that a poor farm or a concentration camp or forced labor is the answer. I think we've got to be able to ask, 'So why are you here? What is your problem? What is the solution?'"

They are there because they can be (we enable them). The problem is they have no incentive to do anything more strenuous because they don't have to. The solution is to stop enabling them.

This plan provides them jobs, as well as free food, housing, medical care, and education. It simply requires something of them, which isn't asking too much and would benefit them as much as it would us.

But it's a pipe dream. Having given away "free stuff" for decades, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. People would cry "slavery" (regardless of race) and there would be rioting, stealing, murder, looting, and burning in the streets if you ever tried to take it away or demand something in return, which is why "something for nothing" is a very bad idea, except that it won votes for the providers from the recipients and continues to. Remember this quote:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.
Old 06-30-2017, 12:26 PM
Location: Central IL
13,380 posts, read 7,140,948 times
Reputation: 31118
Originally Posted by oh-eve View Post
I would have them come in once a month for a mandatory birth control shot. If they don't show up - no money for you.

Twice the dosage if they come from down South. It makes me angry to not have children because they are too expensive and then I have to pay for other people's poor choices. I often stand in line at the store behind families with 4 little kids, paying with food stamps in the middle of the day, mom AND dad present. Don't have kids if you cannot afford them!!!!
Yeah...maybe we can chemically castrate the men too...women don't impregnate themselves. BTW, that's all completely unethical but that's the path we're headed down these days. Cut programs and hand the proceeds over to the rich...oh, yeah, they'll trickle it down to the rest of us as they see fit.
Old 06-30-2017, 12:29 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
"The rich" don't need that money. If you gave everyone in the country $10,000 and had them all start over from scratch, in a year the poor would be poor again and the rich would be rich again. It's all about choices.
Old 06-30-2017, 12:33 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
"The minimum wage needs to be increased." Minimum wage jobs were never meant to provide a living wage; they were meant to be entry-level part-time jobs from which those holding them (in the past, generally teenagers in high school and young adults in college) moved on once they attained more education and job training -- which is FREE to the poor -- making room for the next generation of young people coming up.
Old 06-30-2017, 12:35 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
Originally Posted by Larry Siegel View Post
No. Governments don't set the real minimum wage, which is zero (what you get if the minimum wage puts you out of a job). If you want enough money to live independently, acquire a skill. No skilled worker makes the Federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour.

I am aware of that. I am more concerned with those abusing the disability programs. They play a lot of golf and baseball. I know from experience with family members (who owe me a lot of money). It's hard work scamming the government, but they don't seem to mind doing that kind of work.

Nothing is free. Their union bargained away part of your parents' cash compensation to pay for the insurance. That is usually a good deal, but calling it free doesn't make it free.

I agree.

That is a nice goal, but it is hard to accomplish because people differ in their ability, and some people will never be skilled. I wish everyone were above average, or at least above an IQ of 90 or 95, but it ain't going to happen. There will always be a part of the population that requires public support. I don't like it, but I can't do anything about it. It's part of nature.

In fact, we have something like the opposite of "survival of the fittest" going on, with all our medical interventions and fertility assistance. Not too smart of us! But that's another discussion for another day.

No, not everyone can or should be a nuclear physicist or even a college graduate. But there are plenty of jobs that need doing in any society that don't require an education or even much native intelligence. We can also reward and respect those workers and should. The problem is that everyone's been brainwashed into thinking that they DESERVE a college degree and are too good to work any job that doesn't require a one.

But that, too, is another post for another day...
Old 06-30-2017, 12:38 PM
7,091 posts, read 3,788,271 times
Reputation: 10580
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
Subsidized housing is very hard to get, simply because demand far far exceeds supply, and waiting lists are 10+ years long in many places. I couldn't even get on the waiting list.
If you mean "housing projects," maybe, since generation after generation live there, considering it their due. But there's also Section 8 housing via which you can rent private homes and apartments, and many landlords love that program since it provides them plenty of tenants with a guaranteed payment of rent.
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