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Old 07-23-2017, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
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Often when discussing segregation in American cities like Chicago and New York we often dismiss the racial component of different neighborhoods by saying that people like to self-segregate. But is that really the case, or are there other issues behind the scene that nudge people towards segregation, where they would otherwise want to live in a mixed neighborhood.

Like I have never lived in an all Black neighborhood. I have never even lived in a predominately Black neighborhood. Now, to hear the self segregation apologists tell it I should naturally, want to live in an all Black neighborhood, for obvious reasons. And it wasn't always a choice; some predominately White neighborhoods opened up in the twenties, some did not open up until the 21st century. But I'm not sure that Black people are necessarily looking for that; maybe if the neighborhood is affluent or in the case of upper middle class neighborhoods but I don't necessarily think that Blacks are going around looking for working class Black neighborhoods to move into. And no one wants a lower working class neighborhood or a Section 8 neighborhood. Obviously better options than housing projects, what few still exist, but not our first choice.

I don't hate on anyone that prefers an all White neighborhood, but I often wonder, if that is someone's preference, it is because of reasons they're not fully aware of. The mixed neighborhoods I have found, is it because people necessarily wanted to live around other people that don't look like them or it is because they're in similar socioeconomically circumstances?

Self-Segregation just sounds good, intellectual, and noble, if you have money to live anywhere. But when you're dealing with the hand you were dealt, you're just trying to get into a safe neighborhood, not necessarily one where you have the luxury to look at it that way.

I doubt that everyone in neighborhoods just chooses to live there because they want to be around people of the same race. Some people maybe, but I don't see the average person going about it in that way. I could be wrong.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
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It depends.

Segregation is by choice when we are talking about middle to upper class people. They have a lot more options of where they can live yet, most prefer to be with their own kind. Thats why you have ethnicities choosing suburbs and taking them over in a way. Cerritos, CA (Korean) and Plano, TX (Indian) leap to mind.

However, if were talking about low income people, segregation is not by choice. They have to live where they can afford. Low income housing is specifically concentrated in most cities. That is where they have to go.
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Old 07-23-2017, 08:57 AM
 
92,471 posts, read 122,730,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys fan in Houston View Post
It depends.

Segregation is by choice when we are talking about middle to upper class people. They have a lot more options of where they can live yet, most prefer to be with their own kind. Thats why you have ethnicities choosing suburbs and taking them over in a way. Cerritos, CA (Korean) and Plano, TX (Indian) leap to mind.

However, if were talking about low income people, segregation is not by choice. They have to live where they can afford. Low income housing is specifically concentrated in most cities. That is where they have to go.
You also have neighborhoods and communities that made a conscious choice to minimize flight and to become an integrated, middle class neighborhood/community. Neighborhoods like Mount Airy in Philadelphia, Beverly in SW Chicago, Parkside in Buffalo and a community such as Shaker Heights just east of Cleveland come to mind. There likely some others that aren't as well known that would fit as well. A Beverly article: https://www.wbez.org/shows/curious-c...9-39a7791c6c0d

There are other factors that may come into play like simple area/community demographics, economics, location within an area or discreet actions, among other things.

Something I've noticed with areas in the portion of the state I live in, if say you want to find middle and upper class black folks, they seem to follow a similar pattern of movement that Jews took and in turn, other groups in that economic strata follow or could also be found in visible/decent degrees as well. So, there may also be patterns of certain groups following each other or integrating with each other within an area as well.
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Old 07-23-2017, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
You also have neighborhoods and communities that made a conscious choice to minimize flight and to become an integrated, middle class neighborhood/community. Neighborhoods like Mount Airy in Philadelphia, Beverly in SW Chicago, Parkside in Buffalo and a community such as Shaker Heights just east of Cleveland come to mind. There likely some others that aren't as well known that would fit as well. A Beverly article: https://www.wbez.org/shows/curious-c...9-39a7791c6c0d

There are other factors that may come into play like simple area/community demographics, economics, location within an area or discreet actions, among other things.

Something I've noticed with areas in the portion of the state I live in, if say you want to find middle and upper class black folks, they seem to follow a similar pattern of movement that Jews took and in turn, other groups in that economic strata follow or could also be found in visible/decent degrees as well. So, there may also be patterns of certain groups following each other or integrating with each other within an area as well.
Here that appears to be the case with Latinos and Filipinos.

What I've found where I'm at now is simple socioeconomic segregation where if you don't make a certain amount of money you either are not going to live there or if you do get in, you're living in a shoebox or a closet somewhere. So you could move into the neighborhood, but there are some quality of life compromises that you'll have to make in order to continue to stay there. For some people Norfolk is worth that trade off, because it places them close to the action, for others not so much. A larger city, like Virginia Beach, people do not seem to have as much of a desire for that urban experience although their Town Center "Downtown" area, is no slouch and attracts residents looking for something different in a suburban oasis. No different from similar lifestyle centers throughout Virginia.

I don't notice the racial thing here so much. I'm sure it probably does exist, but it seems really low key and I cannot give any concrete examples of such. Everytime I did find a neighborhood I thought was predominately one race or ethnicity there are always a few exceptions to the rule. Only consistency I've found is with the housing projects.

To me it is refreshing because in my home state there were a lot of places you could go, but you probably wouldn't go, because of a long standing atmosphere that was already set. You mentioned Shaker Heights, which is a suburb known for having an affluent African-American community. I always liked that place because the suburbs of Akron were anything but that. Then I spent some time in Dayton, and I found Trotwood, which doesn't feel anything like Shaker Heights, but is predominately African-American. Sort of rural though.

Clearly there are better examples of what I'm on about, such as Atlanta.
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Old 07-23-2017, 09:47 AM
 
92,471 posts, read 122,730,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328 View Post
Here that appears to be the case with Latinos and Filipinos.

What I've found where I'm at now is simple socioeconomic segregation where if you don't make a certain amount of money you either are not going to live there or if you do get in, you're living in a shoebox or a closet somewhere. So you could move into the neighborhood, but there are some quality of life compromises that you'll have to make in order to continue to stay there. For some people Norfolk is worth that trade off, because it places them close to the action, for others not so much. A larger city, like Virginia Beach, people do not seem to have as much of a desire for that urban experience although their Town Center "Downtown" area, is no slouch and attracts residents looking for something different in a suburban oasis. No different from similar lifestyle centers throughout Virginia.

I don't notice the racial thing here so much. I'm sure it probably does exist, but it seems really low key and I cannot give any concrete examples of such. Everytime I did find a neighborhood I thought was predominately one race or ethnicity there are always a few exceptions to the rule. Only consistency I've found is with the housing projects.

To me it is refreshing because in my home state there were a lot of places you could go, but you probably wouldn't go, because of a long standing atmosphere that was already set. You mentioned Shaker Heights, which is a suburb known for having an affluent African-American community. I always liked that place because the suburbs of Akron were anything but that. Then I spent some time in Dayton, and I found Trotwood, which doesn't feel anything like Shaker Heights, but is predominately African-American. Sort of rural though.

Clearly there are better examples of what I'm on about, such as Atlanta.
In terms of suburban Akron, what about places like Twinsburg, Copley/Fairlawn, Kent, Macedonia and parts of Barberton?

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-23-2017 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 07-23-2017, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,409,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
In terms of suburban Akron, what about places like Twinsburg, Copley and parts of Barberton?
Copley sounds about right, speaking from personal experience. Twinsburg yes, although a little far out from Akron, but a good call.

I actually knew a family out in Norton. Not too many of us out there, but it isn't far from the West side and not far from Rolling Acres Mall, what is left of it.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:05 AM
 
16,345 posts, read 17,984,177 times
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Not always. Income differences, zoning policies and other factors have historically played a very significant role in segregating people racially. Cities in the US, at least, would not be nearly as segregated if things like red lining had not taken place. Of course, one could argue that red lining would not have existed if people hadn't been racist, which is absolutely a choice. Basically, some people suck and they often allow their fears and misconceptions over small differences (or perceived large differences) influence their behavior. However, I do think that there is less of a racist component to it now than simple economics, and that's probably always been the case.
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:58 AM
 
3,437 posts, read 3,267,063 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328 View Post
Here that appears to be the case with Latinos and Filipinos.

What I've found where I'm at now is simple socioeconomic segregation where if you don't make a certain amount of money you either are not going to live there or if you do get in, you're living in a shoebox or a closet somewhere. So you could move into the neighborhood, but there are some quality of life compromises that you'll have to make in order to continue to stay there. For some people Norfolk is worth that trade off, because it places them close to the action, for others not so much. A larger city, like Virginia Beach, people do not seem to have as much of a desire for that urban experience although their Town Center "Downtown" area, is no slouch and attracts residents looking for something different in a suburban oasis. No different from similar lifestyle centers throughout Virginia.

I don't notice the racial thing here so much. I'm sure it probably does exist, but it seems really low key and I cannot give any concrete examples of such. Everytime I did find a neighborhood I thought was predominately one race or ethnicity there are always a few exceptions to the rule. Only consistency I've found is with the housing projects.

To me it is refreshing because in my home state there were a lot of places you could go, but you probably wouldn't go, because of a long standing atmosphere that was already set. You mentioned Shaker Heights, which is a suburb known for having an affluent African-American community. I always liked that place because the suburbs of Akron were anything but that. Then I spent some time in Dayton, and I found Trotwood, which doesn't feel anything like Shaker Heights, but is predominately African-American. Sort of rural though.

Clearly there are better examples of what I'm on about, such as Atlanta.
I don't think Filipinos "segregate" themselves. I submit its more a function of affordability. if their income affords them to live in an upscale neighborhood, they will even if all their neighbors are white. conversely, if all they can afford is in the ghetto, they have no choice.


you might think they segregate themselves but some who don't have the income may just be renting a room on another Filipino home, especially if they are recent immigrants.
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,646,792 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
I don't think Filipinos "segregate" themselves. I submit its more a function of affordability. if their income affords them to live in an upscale neighborhood, they will even if all their neighbors are white. conversely, if all they can afford is in the ghetto, they have no choice.


you might think they segregate themselves but some who don't have the income may just be renting a room on another Filipino home, especially if they are recent immigrants.
Having grown up in LA, I disagree with that. You have places like Carson, Long Beach, and Daly City that Filipinos flooded. They didnt pick it out of a hat.
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Old 07-24-2017, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Portsmouth, VA
6,514 posts, read 8,409,766 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
I don't think Filipinos "segregate" themselves. I submit its more a function of affordability. if their income affords them to live in an upscale neighborhood, they will even if all their neighbors are white. conversely, if all they can afford is in the ghetto, they have no choice.


you might think they segregate themselves but some who don't have the income may just be renting a room on another Filipino home, especially if they are recent immigrants.
I don't know if Filipinos or Latinos self segregate. I do know that there are some well off Filipino neighborhoods in Virginia Beach. So you may be onto something there.

All I know is that when I do go to the beach here in Norfolk it's predominantly Latinos on the weekends. Where it wasn't before. Between that and the fact that I see a lot of Latinos in the businesses at the surrounding neighborhood I figure it is what it is. It was also like that at one apartment complex I lived at in Virginia Beach. Didn't start out that way. Turned out that way in a few years. I never experienced that transformation before so it was interesting to experience. Probably not to the degree of what one experiences in a city like Chicago but still a noticeable presence. Were Hampton Roads as segregated as Northern areas are you would probably see it to an even greater degree than you do now.

I am more inclined to believe that for some its just easier to live in areas where you don't have those cultural barriers, so I don't think it's personal.
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