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Again, then apples will cost $10 a dozen the farms go under and we either don't eat apples or we import them all. Pick your own is different that's for folks with expendable income and many do it for a family fun day not as regular shopping. Most folks would bypass $10/dozen American picked apples and buy the ones from Chile for $2 a dozen
I think not. That is what the ginormous factory farms would like us to believe. American workers making good wages with a health plan and a 401(K) by Ginormous Apple Corps Inc outweighs the costs of an illegal who must depend on the emergency room for health benefits, our public school system, and all the other social welfare benefits. Not to mention unpaid taxes.
Numerous firms (auto companies come to mind) do the same. We build cars here and import them. There are plenty of Americans who could use these jobs to stabilize economically and build a future.
Not that you said it, but I think it hysterical that one of the slogans one hears daily is that of "Living Wages" or simply raising the minimum wage. Well, how can we do that whilst importing tons of cheap labor? If living wages are important- and they most certainly are- then why look the other way as others try to circumvent them?
Ultimately nobody forces people to take these jobs. I would never take a job that pays under $15/hour. This is the leverage I have having savings built up. Fortunately I make far more than that. I try to tell people to not take a $9/hr hotel receptionist or store clerk job but hey... They take em.
If the fruit is rotting on the tree than the cost of paying a picker $20/hour must be higher than the economic incentive to pick the fruit.
Previous poster on page 4 made a great point about all the fat and overhead in the system not just from welfare and government benefits but from all the countless regulations from ISO regulations to EPA OSHA and everything in between. I understand we need safety regulations to keep things quality and keep workers safe but a lot of the overhead is kind of been taken to the extreme and this cuts into everybody's standard of living to have to support all these parasite programs.
Maybe we shouldn't be coddling everyone who claims to have anxiety or be bipolar by giving them section 8 and perpetually paying for them but kick them out in the streets and force them to get over their anxiety The way nature intended... through exposure. At the current rate a quarter of our population will have a snowflake induced psychological disorder within 10 years. We can't possibly afford to pay for all these people. Same goes for women who make bad dating choices and get themselves impregnated by bad boys, fun guys, or obvious alcoholics or people with gambling problems. Give them support for one kid but that's it. Make them settle down and be more responsible. Meanwhile force the man into basically indentured servitude to support the kid he produced with his seed or leave the country. If he doesnt pay child support, deport him or throw him in prison. Men need to be careful who they stick their penuses into as well. because there's lots of gold digging women out there.
Basically american society is too slothy and impulsive for its own good. Everyone feels they are entitled to have all this fun, fly all over the world, and then suck on the government teet, and not have to be responsible for ones actions and let someone else pay for it. People abuse bankruptcy, creating LLC after LLC and running them into the ground, among other things. Even if these jobs did pay $20/hour I'm not convinced they could find enough Americans to do the work at an acceptable pace or make it in on time every day without calling in sick just because they feel like taking the day off to go drinking and golf.
In a way I'm glad we've reached this point because a life of hard toiling is no way to live unless one is paid handsomely for it.
I look forward to the day they can build robots to pick apples, have self check in at hotels, and have eliminated all grunt work so our species can move into bigger and better things... Assuming out computers don't become self aware and wipe us out.
Law of Supply & Demand. Pretty simple. Those jobs are low paying because there are plenty of illegals who will take those jobs at that pay.
Without illegals, the wages would have to go up to attract candidates from a smaller work force.
How high would they go? At least high enough that it makes sense for a person to take the job rather than survive on the public dole.
I have knowledge of the labor market in Chicago. Besides the well known attraction of Latinos to landscaping, roofing, cook/busboy & house cleaning jobs, they are also heavily represented in dry walling & cement work, and illegal Poles are painters, while illegal Irishmen are heavily represented in building trades- carpenter, electrician and such-- All willing to work for 1/2 the union wages and taking many jobs away from legitimate businesses.
The American work force is ~ 80M, while the "consumer force" is 320M. That means the illegals adding to the work force lowers wages more than their consumerism adds to the economy. Net effect: a drag on the economy.
But is it that simple. For example restaurants. If fiorced to pay 15 bucks an hour does he stay in business?
I don't know about farming but where do they pass on their cost? If illegal immigrants are gone and let's say college students want 12/hr?? Who pays the extra production cost?
Ultimately nobody forces people to take these jobs. I would never take a job that pays under $15/hour. This is the leverage I have having savings built up. Fortunately I make far more than that. I try to tell people to not take a $9/hr hotel receptionist or store clerk job but hey... They take em.
If the fruit is rotting on the tree than the cost of paying a picker $20/hour must be higher than the economic incentive to pick the fruit.
Previous poster on page 4 made a great point about all the fat and overhead in the system not just from welfare and government benefits but from all the countless regulations from ISO regulations to EPA OSHA and everything in between. I understand we need safety regulations to keep things quality and keep workers safe but a lot of the overhead is kind of been taken to the extreme and this cuts into everybody's standard of living to have to support all these parasite programs. Maybe we shouldn't be coddling everyone who claims to have anxiety or be bipolar by giving them section 8 and perpetually paying for them but kick them out in the streets and force them to get over their anxiety The way nature intended... through exposure. At the current rate a quarter of our population will have a snowflake induced psychological disorder within 10 years. We can't possibly afford to pay for all these people.
Lol stockwiz that's another topic we could go forever on. Let me just say that from my very short time in regulatory, let me say a lot of overkill is a result of lawsuits.
But is it that simple. For example restaurants. If fiorced to pay 15 bucks an hour does he stay in business?
I don't know about farming but where do they pass on their cost? If illegal immigrants are gone and let's say college students want 12/hr?? Who pays the extra production cost?
aside from paying illegals, they also get subsidy from the federal govt.
It simply ISN'T hard for "high school students and college students" to find work, though. There are tons of jobs that used to be filled by kids that age that now can't find enough workers. Examples: public swimming pools and parks have had to shorten their hours or close extra days because they can't find enough lifeguards, concession workers, general laborers and the like. My friends who own small construction and painting businesses can't find ANY college kids now who are willing to work in the summers. As a homeowner, I've found that It is incredibly hard to find someone to mow your lawn or do housecleaning. Fast food places are turning to retirees to find reliable workers. I guess American "high school students and college students" just want to sit on their butts staring at a computer instead of doing outdoor work or manual labor. And in many areas there simply aren't a pool of imaginary "illegals" available to do that kind of work. Instead, parks close early, houses don't get roofed or painted or fences installed, and grass just keeps on growing. I WISH we had illegals in my area - I'd sure hire them.
How lazy are you, you can't mow your own friggin yard?
I think not. That is what the ginormous factory farms would like us to believe. American workers making good wages with a health plan and a 401(K) by Ginormous Apple Corps Inc outweighs the costs of an illegal who must depend on the emergency room for health benefits, our public school system, and all the other social welfare benefits. Not to mention unpaid taxes.
Numerous firms (auto companies come to mind) do the same. We build cars here and import them. There are plenty of Americans who could use these jobs to stabilize economically and build a future.
Not that you said it, but I think it hysterical that one of the slogans one hears daily is that of "Living Wages" or simply raising the minimum wage. Well, how can we do that whilst importing tons of cheap labor? If living wages are important- and they most certainly are- then why look the other way as others try to circumvent them?
The "pick your own" was tongue in cheek.
The vast majority of farm jobs are seasonal, crops are seasonal how are they going to have benefits and 401k's? In NJ, we hire many people, hundreds, every spring to pick blueberries, tomatoes, peaches and corn, but by August they are done for the year. No one who needs benefits can make it on a job like this. How is it going to help American workers when they get health benefits or a 401k for 3 months?
Cars I agree with. There are a ton of blue collar jobs that used to be Union high paid jobs, but as the unions lost power their workers lost wages and benefits, then globalization meant we couldn't compete unless we lowered wages. I agree there is much wrong with this, but it has nothing to do with low skilled immigrant labor. I agree they should be given a path to legal work status so they can pay taxes.
I don't think most people here seem to understand the relationship between wages and how much things cost. When TVs were built in America and the workers were well-paid, TVs were expensive. A household had one TV, 2 if you were rich. Now they are made with cheap, cheap labor, and the sets have come down to the point where normal middle class people have 3 or 4. It is easy to say "Build the TV here and pay a decent wage to the builder!" but the result is going to be a TV that cannot compete price-wise with anything from overseas
This is not just something companies say, that is silly. It is hard to deny that a TV made by people making $18 an hour with benefits is going to cost substantially more than one where the workers made $1.22 an hour and get no benefits, overtime, or anything else. ....and Walmart proved beyond any doubt that the majority of Americans care more about low prices than where things are made. So then the factory goes under, and we continue to buy the $150 Vizio at Walmart.
I feel like a lot of posts are based on feelings, what "should" be in an ideal world, rather than debating based on the reality of the world today.
Ok, first let me give you a bit of background on me because I ask this question honestly to understand this issue better.
although I live in a major US city, we are not on a border with Mexico (which I know is not the only country we supposedly have immigration issues with, just using it as an example). so while we have an nice hispanic population I really could not tell you who is "illegal" or not. I've never heard of Philadelphia having a huge "illegal" issue. So I totally own up to my ignorance in this area,
I do have two good friends who own their own restaurants and one is a farmer. All three are very vocal about the fact that trying to hire folks for the wages they can pay is an issue. my one friends says any person he hires he helps to get work authorization. I cannot prove he does but I have no reason to doubt him. any hoo, for his kitchen staff (washers, bussers, cleaners) he claims even at 7.00 bucks an hour (which is more than the servers make) after a year of heavy advertising he got no takers.
Like most restaurant owners he cannot pay everyone $15.00 hour. He simply would not survive because the bottom line is the cost would be passed onto the customer who would squawk?
So my question what is the market where immigrants are replacing American workers (not talking about companies moving to another country). lol that's another question.
First minimum wage in PA is 7.25/hr (servers get tips). Why should a US citizen have to work for less than the set minimum wage?
Do you honestly believe citizens do not work for minimum wage?
You are interchanging illegal aliens with immigrants so I am assuming you are asking about illegal aliens.
What market are they competing for employment? Restaurant, hotel/service, agriculture. These jobs are easy enough to pay under the table. Also factory work, especially processing plants (Tyson is a big employer), construction; including building, roofing, pipe work, landscaping. These are the areas I see what is most likely illegal aliens.
Illegal workers not only compete for these jobs they depress wages by working for less than the going wage. My kids have worked in construction and their wages about 8 years ago were higher than they are now due to the companies hiring illegals willing to do the work cheaper. Not only do illegals accept lower pay, employers get by with not providing benefits and being able to treat illegal workers badly.
Your friend is paying his workers less than the federal minimum wage. How do you think a citizen affords rent or mortgage, utilities, etc. on $7/hr. US citizens dont typically live the way illegals do.
It all seems like business as usual - after all, America was built on "imported" labor. In fact, much of it WAS illegal (slavery), but those smart coyotes worked out ways around it. For example, if importing slaves from Africa was illegal, they'd bring them to the Caribbean and smuggle them in later:
"The final Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves was adopted in 1807, effective in 1808. However, illegal importation of African slaves (smuggling) was common"
Slavery was not illegal until after the war. A big stretch between legal slavery (even if there was a small amount of illegal importation) in a dominant agricultural economy in an expanding big new world and illegal immigration in a dominantly technological and industrial economy in a populated country.
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I'm not going to claim that all Johns and Sues are scared of work because I know of too many exceptions. But we still fall far short of the workforce we need to carve up meat, pluck chickens and spend 95 degree days outside in Miami doing construction or landscaping.
If Americans want to live like Kings - and, let's face it, many of us do....we need servants. Sure, we don't call them servants or slaves, but someone has to work the 3 shifts at Tyson pulling the headless chicken carcasses off the line. I dare anyone to tell me that is a job that one can be proud of...due to the dignity of work. It would be another thing to be a small town butcher or farmer - but standing on an industrial killing line year in and year out seems to me like an apt description of hell on earth....and I'm a "dirty job" guy.
We have a Tyson plant in my town. It once employed many local people. Then the illegals moved in. There was a class action suite against the company (Then Purdue) because they refused to hire citizens over illegals. Does that tell you Americans citizens are above working in these jobs. There is nothing undignified about legal employment and being self supporting.
Believe it or not Americans are not afraid or too good to do labor/trades jobs. Not every citizen is destined to be a CEO. These are the forgotten Americans, you know the deplorables.The ones that work in the chicken plant, do construction jobs, work in hotels, factories, restaurants, nursing facilities.
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