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Old 10-12-2017, 04:57 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,114 posts, read 107,301,106 times
Reputation: 115931

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Quote:
Originally Posted by testing_waters View Post
I have had on two occasions, once with a finger waving in my face that I needed to accept responsibility for the system we live in because I'm white. one of the two asserted that I should be paying reparations. I'm Irish. Where the heck are MY reparations? lol , give me a break.
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I don't see that as implying "White guilt", not for historical wrongs, exactly. What that's saying is that the economic and political power structures in our society are very predominantly White, and the beneficiaries of that fact R us. So if we care about others and about what our country stands for (or used to stand for?), we should do our part to fix the aspects that hold others back.

What "doing our part" looks like will vary from one person to the next. For some, it would be informing themselves, and making a difference at the ballot box. For others, it might be some kind of volunteer work. Some might band together with friends or colleagues to start a scholarship fund. For some, it might involve setting up a guest speaker program in their church, so that church-goers could see a different perspective, and perhaps meditate on what their religious directives and values mean to them in a broad societal context.

Is that really so bad? Wouldn't a lot of people like to have a role in making the world a better place?

 
Old 10-12-2017, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Texas
13,480 posts, read 8,325,942 times
Reputation: 25947
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I think if educational opportunity were available, and there were good job prospects after a degree or two were in hand, that would do a lot to dispel this kind of sentiment. People would be too busy throwing themselves into an education, lol. When sponsors come into inner-city highschools, and promise kids guaranteed college scholarships in their HS freshman year, suddenly, a LOT of kids buckle down, and start taking school seriously. Hopelessness breeds all kinds of problems. Hope + real incentives help resolve problems.
College educations don't help everyone get ahead, though. Especially liberal arts degrees. Many people would do better to attend vocational school, but they won't because they see these types of jobs as lacking prestige.


Also, people who don't want to work at all, cannot be helped. If someone thinks someone else owes them a free house, they've got issues.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 04:57 PM
 
17,405 posts, read 13,177,815 times
Reputation: 32753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Rhetoric? Vilifying? Setting all that aside, aren't you concerned that the deck is, and has been for hundreds of years, stacked against certain people, just because they were born into certain communities, of certain ethnicities? If so, why not inform yourself about the structural obstacles they face, and pitch in to help in some way? OK, you're struggling with your own personal challenges--fair enough. But this country used to pride itself on being a meritocracy where (theoretically) everyone had a fair shake, an equal chance to improve their lot. I'd like to see it live up to that self-image, to the promise implied in that.
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What about Eastern European Jews fleeing the Holocaust and pogroms?

What about the Chinese laborers brought in by others to open the west?

What about the Irish and Italian immigrants looking for a better life?

What about, oh Hell, I could go on forever

Look, what happened in the past was awful. It never should have happened. But what would be the lives of slaves relatives be like today if their own hadn't sold them into slavery?

What about the Chinese, how would their descendants be today if their own didn't bring them here?

I don't, and never did, own slaves or underpay immigrants (neither did any of my ancestors). Why should I be vilified for something done 1-2 centuries ago?

All I can do is to is to try to lead a good life and teach my kids and grand kids to to the same To help others and treat them as I expect to be treated.

Frankly, I an sick of this sins of our fathers crap!
 
Old 10-12-2017, 04:59 PM
 
24,530 posts, read 18,093,858 times
Reputation: 40216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I think if educational opportunity were available, and there were good job prospects after a degree or two were in hand, that would do a lot to dispel this kind of sentiment. People would be too busy throwing themselves into an education, lol. When sponsors come into inner-city highschools, and promise kids guaranteed college scholarships in their HS freshman year, suddenly, a LOT of kids buckle down, and start taking school seriously. Hopelessness breeds all kinds of problems. Hope + real incentives help resolve problems.
I don't think the problem is "educational opportunity". The problem is really lousy parenting. If you don't instill a strong education ethic and work ethic in your children, they're not going to do well no matter what school you put them in.

I also don't think the problem is race. The problem is socioeconomic segregation. White trash have the same lousy education ethic as black ghetto people with similar outcome. Red state lack of a safety net and services for the poor hammers equally at ignorant white people, ignorant brown people, and ignorant black people.

That said, I have no clue how to fix the problem. The behavior pattern that causes the permanent underclass is passed on long before children hit kindergarten. The French have tried starting preschool for their underclass at age 3 and have a much longer school day and school year. The state stepping in and replacing the parenting that isn't happening. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe there is no answer and we just write off most of that permanent underclass. All I know is that what we've been doing since the LBJ Great Society hasn't worked. It would be insanity to continue doing that.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 05:33 PM
 
50,418 posts, read 36,064,195 times
Reputation: 76313
Quote:
Originally Posted by testing_waters View Post
Why must there be "white guilt" to resolve racism and inequality ?

Is it not possible to empower people without vilifying other people? Isn't that a little ironic ?

"hey, life's not fair, let us make it fair, by playing unfair".

Am I the only white person that is complete exhausted from having this rhetoric everywhere, where I have to now feel guilty for the plight of a group of people when I have my own adversities to overcome, but apparently who cares about my adversity. my "people" who I have nothing to do with started this country I now live in so now I have to take on their sins. What is this? some twisted warped version of Catholicism?

you are born with sin and now, if you are born white, you are born with sin and some.


what are we getting that is important from perpetuating white guilt ?
White guilt is not something people want you to feel nor make you feel. I think I exhibit it in certain ways, like I am a lot of times nicer to strangers who are black because I don't want them to think I'm racist, lol. But I am a person who feels guilty about just about everything, it's just my nature. I don't do this because I read an article or because we used to own slaves or anything like that, it's just my own insecurities.

Your belief to me is as silly as saying that in order to equal the playing field for women men need to feel guilty about what Harvey Weinstein did. No one asks you to feel guilty. I have never known a black person who believed white people should feel guilty.

Do you feel that simply reporting or discussing the often horrible history between races in this country is a manipulation to make you feel guilty??? Why?

Who is "playing unfair", and how?
 
Old 10-12-2017, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,424 posts, read 23,999,031 times
Reputation: 32728
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBeisbol View Post
Until we can ignore problems, we will never solve them.
The best way to solve a problem is to ignore it?
 
Old 10-12-2017, 05:52 PM
 
17,405 posts, read 13,177,815 times
Reputation: 32753
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The best way to solve a problem is to ignore it?
The only problem here is manufactured.

It's time to get over the "sins of thy fathers" and look for solutions to the present mess.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 06:16 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,114 posts, read 107,301,106 times
Reputation: 115931
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
What about Eastern European Jews fleeing the Holocaust and pogroms?

What about the Chinese laborers brought in by others to open the west?

What about the Irish and Italian immigrants looking for a better life?

What about, oh Hell, I could go on forever

Look, what happened in the past was awful. It never should have happened. But what would be the lives of slaves relatives be like today if their own hadn't sold them into slavery?

What about the Chinese, how would their descendants be today if their own didn't bring them here?

I don't, and never did, own slaves or underpay immigrants (neither did any of my ancestors). Why should I be vilified for something done 1-2 centuries ago?

All I can do is to is to try to lead a good life and teach my kids and grand kids to to the same To help others and treat them as I expect to be treated.

Frankly, I an sick of this sins of our fathers crap!
Who's vilifying you? Nobody's vilifying me. What channel are y'all tuning into?

The descendants of Chinese laborers aren't having a hard time finding jobs or buying houses where they want to. They overcame Asian exclusionary laws, but other minority peoples have continued to have roadblocks put in their way in modern times. It still isn't an equal playing field, not yet.

Jews fleeing pogroms and Holocaust? You mean the boatload of them the US refused to let in? Jews in the US have always had an easier time climbing up the ladder. Not without flack, but still, they were able to get a piece of the pie. The Irish and Italians have made it, though not without an initially rough time. And btw, the Irish working class tried to prevent Black workers from joining the unions. They succeeded for awhile.

Who are we to say if people would be better off in their ancestors' original homeland? That's not our judgment to make.

Good for you; live the good life, raise your kids to be respectful and to give everyone a fair shake. And to speak out when others don't get a fair shake? Is that on the list, too? Just wondering.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Central IL
20,726 posts, read 16,267,096 times
Reputation: 50369
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
The only problem here is manufactured.

It's time to get over the "sins of thy fathers" and look for solutions to the present mess.
Guilt may not be strictly necessary, but without it that removes one big motivator to do anything. Hey, as long as YOU'RE not personally responsible for the problem, why should you help make it better?

If you can honestly say you're not responsible and then still take solid action - good for you! But I'd say as long as you think you're in the clear you'll keep going like you're going and not even acknowledge the advantages you have.
 
Old 10-12-2017, 06:19 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,114 posts, read 107,301,106 times
Reputation: 115931
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1003 View Post
The only problem here is manufactured.

It's time to get over the "sins of thy fathers" and look for solutions to the present mess.
No argument!
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