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guys with erections and/or ill intent are the harm.
The times I have been to a FKK beach, a sunbathing spot in the park, a sauna at the gym or any other place where both men and women go naked I have yet to see any dude walking around with a woody.
Yes there are some Sauna clubs and FKK places which are more of sex clubs but it is obvious and you have to be at least 18. There it is different.
That's not really relevant, and anyway, at some point, they began covering their private parts.
The fact that human evolved naked (along with the fact that, even today, many cultures are fairly accepting of public nudity) supports my central point: Nudity, in itself, is not harmful to children. (Well, technically, anything can be harmful in particular circumstances. Riding a bike, swimming, playing baseball, eating peanut butter...all can be dangerous. Things need to be evaluated in terms of significance and degrees. Of all the things that can potentially cause harm, all evidence suggests that public nudity is among the least harmful things that societies allow. And, to some degree, this is because we evolved naked. Compare: We did not evolve eating high daily doses of refined sugars. You would prevent harm to 100s of times more children by banning advertising and child's-eye-level marketing strategies aimed at children than you save by banning public nudity.)
Ultimately, it is an empirical question. There are plenty of reasons to suspect that allowing public nudity would have no significant impact on the overall rates of crimes against children. There are even some reasons to suspect that allowing public nudity might slightly decrease the number of crimes against children. In any case, IF any particular instance of public nudity did, in fact, contribute to some harm to a child, it would not be nudity, per se, that was the problem but, rather, the cultural prudish reactions to nudity that turned a naturally harmless aspect of life into something potentially harmful.
As for disease: Our hands are basically the dirtiest parts of our bodies. Banning people from exposing their un-gloved hands in public would probably prevent far more disease than banning nudity. BTW: In nudist gatherings, people often carry towels to sit on. But even people sitting around naked without towels would be relatively harmless compared, for example, to spitting in public, or sneezing, or animals doing their business, or people flicking their boogers... If you are going to panic about every source of disease in the natural world, naked butts are a relatively minor concern. Again, for public health policy decisions, we ought to think in terms of significance and degree. By any measure, public nudity would be an utterly trivial concern, at best. More likely is that getting rid the dominant American prudish attitudes about nudity would eventually improve overall public safety.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 03-08-2018 at 06:58 AM..
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Originally Posted by redguitar77111
I think Americans make the mistake of seeing slippery slopes where they aren't. Americans think a woman's breast on tv will lead to people sitting on train seats completely nude, that Obamacare will lead to America becoming like the USSR, etc.
True. You can also add that the 60s loosening of social mores was a KGB-enginnered attempt to destroy America by destroying it's values base. Or that someone with a few odd habits will turn out to be our next big mass killer. Our education system isn't exactly know for rigorous training in critical thinking skills.
Blame the shame on the Bible, and the story of Adam and Eve. It's modern day missionaries who are clothing primitive tribes. When I think about it for all intents and purposes, Atheists should be naked.
Blame the shame on the Bible, and the story of Adam and Eve. It's modern day missionaries who are clothing primitive tribes. When I think about it for all intents and purposes, Atheists should be naked.
Or, at least, they should have the legal right to be naked in places where it makes perfect sense, such as beaches, nature parks, and on private property.
Prehistoric humans lived without clothes for a million years. Nudity, itself, is certainly not harmful to anyone (except insofar as there is exposure to the elements - which is why clothing became valuable in the first place). Many relatively modern cultures have made nudity seem "bad" or embarrassing/shameful in a moral sense, and I'd say this is highly unfortunate. In the grand scheme of things, the invention of "shame" in relation to the naked body was essentially the invention of a really major form of child abuse (and probably played a role in the oppression of women as well). We turned a perfectly normal, healthy openness about the human body and sexuality into a source of discomfort and emotional turmoil. Basically, something that should be naturally harmless (nudity and sensual feelings associated with nudity) has become a potential source of harm due to the utter foolishness of the invention of "shame" about the naked body and feelings of shame/moral sin regarding sexuality.
Modern-day nudists/naturists attempt to undo this damage, but the clueless masses of humanity see them as the weirdos.
The problem with applying the pre-historical "argument" to a modern question is that society today is nothing like that.
Even Stone Age people covered themselves, perhaps also for purposes of modesty and not just protection against the elements.
Primitive societies where partial nudity is the norm tend to be in temperate climates where there is little need for thermal protection - which is certainly not the case for most of the West. Perhaps in the more southern latitudes where there are more temperate climates (the Mediterranean comes to mind) you might expect to find more of that.
But you also have to consider that primitive societies also have been more permissive of sexual behavior that is impermissible or less permissible in modern society - like homosexuality, pedophilia, polygamy, and rape, as well as other sexual practices considered abusive such as genital mutilation.
Nudity is ugly. Religion aside--and I'm not putting religion aside--nudity is just too ugly to stand for too long. Then there's the fact that for most of America, public nudity breaks at least a dozen or more verses of the Bible.
When you add to aesthetic and religious considerations the fact you never know when a potential predator is in one of those "naturist" joints, you pretty much get why most people consider nudists mentally ill.
When I was a teenager (46 years ago) I read a book on sexuality. The opening page had a quote that said "Why be ashamed of something God was not ashamed of creating?". I believe it was Tertulian but I may be wrong. I was very religious also. That quote opened my mind at least a little bit.
Prudishness is influenced to the culture norms. Your religious culture influences you opinion in my view. The Bible books were written by men that were influenced by the times and in some case they were innovative regarding views. I am not saying that is good or bad. Their views were subjective as any other views.
As far as predators is concerned, they tend to be influenced by psychological issues whether their attention is on individuals that are clothed or not. How many religious leaders and their masses have been caught in lascivious acts with children? So your criteria on predators applies to any group. Did you know that ads that show individuals of any age can have the same effect than a porn magazine? A pedophile can get excited by looking at a newspaper ad of a young boy or girl in a swimming suit. That can be his or her pornography.
They don't have to join a nudist group. Many are caught in churches, sports events, swimming pools, schools, etc. and they are fully clothed.
It is important to study and do further research on predators to have a more balanced view. I read a couple of books on the issue. One is entitled "Pedophilia and Sexual Offending Against Children" by Michael C. Seto and "Preventing Sexual Violence" by John Q. La Fond. Both books are from the American Psychological Association. Both books gave me a more open minded view on the issue of predators. In some cases we as a society have gone too far on the issue out of ignorance. I do agree that our children today must be protected by today's societal standards if that is what we want. However, what you and others are against is something that in yesteryears was very normal and it may be normal in other societies without great harm as you claim. In other words, it is subjective. That means they are subject to personal moral views, societal views, etc. They are right or wrong based on subjectivity.
I suggest further reading on sexuality across societies past and present. I have done so and it has been very enlightening.
I've been in places where nudity was the norm. It is absolutely 100% true that newcomers take a very short time to acclimate to the fact that it's really not a big deal, not sexually exciting, it just doesn't matter. No one is having uncontrollable erections or fits of the vapors. When you see lots of people being naked, you don't judge anyone as being "ugly" anymore, either. Many of the people in the community have said that it got them over their body image issues and taught them not to hate themselves for not being perfect.
I'm an American and I am all for nudity. Wear clothes for sensible reasons when it make sense, like protection from weather. Otherwise? Nudity should be a legal option and people would get over it pretty quick.
Sadly, the comments about predators...ya know, maybe if our culture had a better understanding of the nature of consent. Maybe one day.
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