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The Civil Service is supposed to be a meritocracy, but the rules are commonly bent to hire the person that is wanted, rather than the best qualified, or the most deserving. There are also lists (the stopper list, veteran's preference, military wife, etc) that must be consulted prior to selecting a person (but I have seen these lists usually circumvented). Agencies can also hire internally or externally, and they can create a job description that is so specific, only one person can fill it. Agencies can also keep a job announcement open for a very short period. I have seen all of the tricks and manipulations to bring in certain people. There is an old saying "to elevate one is to build a nest of them."
It took me many years to realize that the Civil Service is not a meritocracy. As far as government service is concerned, the military is far more meritocratic (until the upper ranks), since rules are clear, and members know what is needed to advance to the next grade.
I can attest to this. After military service, and some other gov't work, I had it in mind to become a 'regular' cop. I took the Civil Service exam twice, and both times I scored 100% without needing the extra 5 points that were/could be awarded for 'veteran's preference'. I have a relatively high IQ and I am well educated.
But I discovered that I could not get a Civil Service job. 'Affirmative action' ruled the hiring process and I did not fit the desired profile, others, far less qualified were hired instead. Later, in another capacity, I often found myself working with cops who were hired as a result of the 'affirmative action' program and I was appalled and dismayed at the performance I observed. Some of these cops were dismally poor at deductive reasoning skills, and had trouble spelling words with as few as two or three letters, more complicated words were well beyond their abilities. They could barely read, and barely write at a level that one might expect of a second-grader, reading their reports was often frustrating and dumbfounding. Dealing with them in person was equally exasperating.
I believe that this program, applied to this type of job, was one of the worst things that could have been done as it concerns the average American citizens, and is at least partly to blame for what I consider to be the horrendous state of 'policing' that exists today.
I can attest to this. After military service, and some other gov't work, I had it in mind to become a 'regular' cop. I took the Civil Service exam twice, and both times I scored 100% without needing the extra 5 points that were/could be awarded for 'veteran's preference'. I have a relatively high IQ and I am well educated.
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You should look around at other police departments. Many police departments give preferential treatment for people with military service. I know many people complain government employment isn't meritocratic because of all the bonuses given to people with military service.
You should look around at other police departments. Many police departments give preferential treatment for people with military service. I know many people complain government employment isn't meritocratic because of all the bonuses given to people with military service.
Around here they give preference to the sons of cops and firemen and of politicians. There are virtually no black cops or firemen even though the cities here are close to majority black. Even though many of the black kids have legal problems you can't tell me they couldn't find 100 - 200 to put in these jobs.
As a former college teacher I am in favor of a "meritocracy." I was just starting out in my profession in the sciences when the Equal Opportunity laws were passed, and I must admit that I didn't think highly of the idea. It seemed to me that EEO rules placed me in a position where my colleagues might question my attainments and write me off a token woman in the sciences who got her job to fill some quota and not because of my own hard work. I did NOT have it easy and I worked my way thru college as well as getting a scholarship that paid for my tuition.
My family was made up of Kentucky hillbillies who brewed shine and worked as small farmers and sometimes in the coal mines. NOT people you'd vote for as "most likely to succeed." However, my parents and grandparents were huge believers in getting as good an education as possible in order to climb out of the trap of poverty and (sometimes) despair. My cousins and I all got college degrees and one of my cousins became the first woman president of a major university; while my Dad would tell me tales of unhooking the family mule from its plow and riding it over to the nearby Eastern Kentucky University to attend classes.
However, my first "real" job made me rethink some of my views on meritocracy. I got a position at a college that offered free tuition to Native Americans. Some of those kids came into college straight off some sand scoured sheep ranch in the middle of nowhere, and I will always remember how completely lost some of them looked and indeed were. They WANTED a college degree but all too often the schools on the Rez simply didn't prepare them to do college level work. The same is true of public schools on the wrong side of the tracks in some urban area - especially in neighborhoods that are made up of racial minorities.
I had one "prize student" whom I really tried to encourage - even gave him a key to my office so that he could escape all the commotion going on at home and just have a quiet place to study. He got his degree in chemistry through much hard work, but was denied admittance to the PhD program at the University of Colorado because the faculty there decided that our small college out here in "Indian Country" wasn't rigorous enough and that he'd probably just would drop out.
OOOH! I wanted to go give the chemistry faculty at CU a piece of my mind to their very faces. That kid knew nothing but hard work and somehow maintaining an A average against all odds. He would have been an outstanding PhD candidate and scientist. Well, it was CU's loss. He was eventually admitted into the science program of another university and graduated with flying colors.
That kid deserved a break and when he finally got one, he made the most of it.
I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't hurt to give a person a hand UP, rather than a hand OUT. Too many people confuse these two things in their thinking.
As for the rest of what that woman was espousing, it sounds hopelessly PC to me. The middle road is always preferential to riding in on a high horse. Just MHO.
One of the best posts I've ever read, Rambler. If more people were like you threads about merit and privilege wouldn't exist.
One of the best posts I've ever read, Rambler. If more people were like you threads about merit and privilege wouldn't exist.
W would like to inquire, what's wrong with threads pointing out double standards in hiring, or for that matter foreign policy. I am sick and tired of devaluation of work, thrift and civilization.
W would like to inquire, what's wrong with threads pointing out double standards in hiring, or for that matter foreign policy. I am sick and tired of devaluation of work, thrift and civilization.
Nothing at all. Justice Roberts said something like to end discrimination you have to end discrimination.
That doesn't contradict Rambler's distinction between a helping hand vs. a handout. If there were more helping hands, handouts, in the form of preferences, wouldn't exist.
I've on both ends of helping hands. From my experience, there are very few people who make it 100% on their own. Most people get a break at some point. That's why "getting a break" and "helping hand" are such immediately recognizable phrases. Almost everyone has experience with them.
In the case or more black cops and firemen in majority minority cities, it follows the footsteps the Irish used to lift themselves. They took over those ladders and used them to move up. Blacks could do the exact same thing. No help required. Just throw out the white bums and put in your own.
The law can't discriminate. If it says one college can favor blacks, it is equally justifiable for another college to favor whites. Diversity is no juster a goal than uniformity. The law must be blind to be just. But a person is free to associate with whomever he wants and if he wants to associate with someone who needs a break that's up to him.
Angela Putnam, a Pennsylvania State University-Brandywine professor thinks college faculty need to do more to undermine their students' belief in "meritocracy" and the value of "hard work" (link). Her view is that meritocracy entrenches white power and privilege. See “Working Hard” Is A White Lie, According To Penn State-Brandywine Professor (link to article). The two articles both come from what some would call right-wing websites. I personally found the rhetoric to be conclusory, and not likely to persuade many people outside the Internet echo chamber. Thus, I visited Ms. Putnam's website (link to main website) and associated blog (link to blog). I will post a few excerpts , and keep them brief enough to stay within posting rules. Excerpts:
An abstract from one of her seminars (link) states "Three ideological discourses emerged before, during, and after the seminar – Liberal Pluralism, Meritocracy, and “Reverse Racism.”"
It is quite difficult for any institution with academic rigor and selective admissions to be other than a meritocracy. That is just common sense. However, not all professors exercise common sense or even coherence. As much as I criticize right-wing websites, I find the so-called "work" of Angela Putnam to border on incoherence. She argues that "every white person—no matter how rich or poor, old or young, educated or uneducated, can and should step up and work toward dismantling systemic racism and fight for equity and social justice." She gives no suggestion as to how that "dismantling" would occur.
Other professors even argue that white civility towards blacks is somehow racist. Two professors at University of Northern Iowa, C. Kyle Rudick and Kathryn B. Golsan "say classroom 'civility' promotes 'white racial power'" (link) & (link to paywalled article).
Perhaps their answer is in a less restrained, even violent and/or chaotic academic environment that prevails in many schools and much of society. I actually believe that the merit system is time proven, works and benefits all.
"I actually believe that the merit system is time proven, works and benefits all."
Of course you do. I wouldn't have expected anything less.
Here's the bottom line: Putnam's thinking is far out in left field. Your thinking is far out in right field. The reality is somewhere in between.
If meritocracy was handled properly, that would be one thing. Are you so naive that you've never heard of "the good ole boy's network". It predated America and America still reeks of it. There still is no truly level playing field, although things are certainly better than they used to be.
By the way. After reading hundreds of your posts over quite a few months now, I don't recall you regularly criticizing right-wing websites. Quite the opposite.
Nothing at all. Justice Roberts said something like to end discrimination you have to end discrimination.
That doesn't contradict Rambler's distinction between a helping hand vs. a handout. If there were more helping hands, handouts, in the form of preferences, wouldn't exist.
I've on both ends of helping hands. From my experience, there are very few people who make it 100% on their own. Most people get a break at some point. That's why "getting a break" and "helping hand" are such immediately recognizable phrases. Almost everyone has experience with them.
In the case or more black cops and firemen in majority minority cities, it follows the footsteps the Irish used to lift themselves. They took over those ladders and used them to move up. Blacks could do the exact same thing. No help required. Just throw out the white bums and put in your own.
The law can't discriminate. If it says one college can favor blacks, it is equally justifiable for another college to favor whites. Diversity is no juster a goal than uniformity. The law must be blind to be just. But a person is free to associate with whomever he wants and if he wants to associate with someone who needs a break that's up to him.
I couldn't agree more. For many jobs 90% of success is showing up, just like life itself. If it weren't for the drug abuse and late-night carousing they could start at 17 at low-level jobs, much derided as "burger flipping" and work their way up. My first and fourth jobs were seasonal work at a camp for emotionally disturbed children, summers of 1974 and 1975. My second job, in 1974 at 17 was sweeping the floor of a plastics factory. That didn't work out too well. My third job, working at a grocery store at the end of my senior year of high school, when I turned 18, went well. Though it wasn't prestigious work the manager taught me a lot about the way the business worked. Now I am a successful lawyer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snebarekim
This fell apart in the first sentence...............
Good one. I thought when I saw the word "fell" you were going to say my post fell apart, until I got it.
If it's a lunacy, it probably came from a college. These self-contained echo chambers hear the same stuff over and over again and once in a while a little bit of it leaks out, for our amusement. It's embarrassing that colleges have sunk to this level.
Only people who don't work, who have no experience with work, could imagine, much less believe, something like this.
You're certainly right. Right-wing religious universities are echo chambers that promote lunacy.
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