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Old 03-29-2018, 12:46 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,651 posts, read 6,176,207 times
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Mirielle Kroll, an 85 year old Holocaust survivor was murdered by neighbors alleged because she was Jewish. The brutal killing of a Holocaust survivor raises anti-Semitism fears in France. She was stabbed 11 times and then left to die in her house, which the killers set ablaze. This was not the only such incident. An Orthodox Jewish woman in her sixties was thrown out of the window of her Paris flat by a neighbor shouting “Allahu Akhbar.”Thousands march in Paris in memory of murdered Holocaust survivor.

According to a recent NY Times article,In France, Officer Slain After Swapping Places With Hostage Is Hailed as Hero, "France mourned a police officer who died of his injuries after swapping places with a hostage held by a gunman claiming allegiance to the Islamic State."

After the U.S. and Israel, France, with 460,000 Jews has the third highest number of Jew of any country. The question remains, why are they remaining in France or for that matter anywhere in Continental Europe? France has, to be sure, brief intervals of liberalism. The first few years of the French revolutionary period, some of the years of Napolean's reign, and the period from 1945 to the early 1960's come to mind.

However, France is also the land of the DREYFUS CASE ("L'Affaire Dreyfus"), and notable collaboration with the Nazis by the Vichy Government and in the areas directly occupied by the Nazis. The current and recent governments indeed seem well intentioned. Former PM Valls was quoted in an Atlantic Magazine article as follows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlantic Magazine
Valls, a Socialist who is the son of Spanish immigrants, describes the threat of a Jewish exodus from France this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.”
The problem, this time around is not France's government; it is recent Islamist immigrants. It is not possible, unless the Government wants an internal war, to really bring matters under control. French troops cannot surround each synagogue, each Kosher market or now, as we learn from the Kroll murder, each private house.

Other European countries such as Belgium, Denmark and Sweden have experienced similar strife. The Great Debate question is whether the Jewish people can safely exist and build a life and a community anywhere besides Israel, the U.S., Canada & Australia?

I believe the answer is a firm "no."
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Old 03-29-2018, 12:56 PM
 
9,273 posts, read 6,196,968 times
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NO!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-not-an-exodus

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...europe/386279/

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/If-ant...to-flee-484826
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Eretz Yisrael
21,345 posts, read 24,000,174 times
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No.

Nearly all Jews outside of the Americas and Israel are of boomer age and older. They don't want to leave due to that's the culture they're accustomed to. France is a sine wave We've had tons of threads of how people feel in general about France and most of those threads France is in the top three in disliked countries and people. Israeli's don't care for the French either, as a majority come in demanding more than Israel can provide. Israel attempts to balance out professional licensing. So if someone comes in as psychiatrist and Israel has what it statistics state is the correct number, then they won't grant them a license. Thus for whatever amount comes, figure around 30% go back.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:31 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,651 posts, read 6,176,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
No.

Nearly all Jews outside of the Americas and Israel are of boomer age and older. They don't want to leave due to that's the culture they're accustomed to. France is a sine wave We've had tons of threads of how people feel in general about France and most of those threads France is in the top three in disliked countries and people. Israeli's don't care for the French either, as a majority come in demanding more than Israel can provide. Israel attempts to balance out professional licensing. So if someone comes in as psychiatrist and Israel has what it statistics state is the correct number, then they won't grant them a license. Thus for whatever amount comes, figure around 30% go back.
Europe has always been a tragic dead end for the Jewish people. There have been good periods in most countries in which they inhabit. However, in no country outside the Anglosphere and Israel has it ended well.

At the very least, the older generation should encourage the younger generation to leave. It is not going to get better.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,112,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The Great Debate question is whether the Jewish people can safely exist and build a life and a community anywhere besides Israel, the U.S., Canada & Australia?
Sure they can. England, Wales, Ireland, Mexico, New Zealand, Japan, etc. just to name a few. It's a big planet. Some may be better choices than others, but it's do-able.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:26 PM
 
9,147 posts, read 9,224,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Mirielle Kroll, an 85 year old Holocaust survivor was murdered by neighbors alleged because she was Jewish. The brutal killing of a Holocaust survivor raises anti-Semitism fears in France. She was stabbed 11 times and then left to die in her house, which the killers set ablaze. This was not the only such incident. An Orthodox Jewish woman in her sixties was thrown out of the window of her Paris flat by a neighbor shouting “Allahu Akhbar.”Thousands march in Paris in memory of murdered Holocaust survivor.

According to a recent NY Times article,In France, Officer Slain After Swapping Places With Hostage Is Hailed as Hero, "France mourned a police officer who died of his injuries after swapping places with a hostage held by a gunman claiming allegiance to the Islamic State."

After the U.S. and Israel, France, with 460,000 Jews has the third highest number of Jew of any country. The question remains, why are they remaining in France or for that matter anywhere in Continental Europe? France has, to be sure, brief intervals of liberalism. The first few years of the French revolutionary period, some of the years of Napolean's reign, and the period from 1945 to the early 1960's come to mind.

However, France is also the land of the DREYFUS CASE ("L'Affaire Dreyfus"), and notable collaboration with the Nazis by the Vichy Government and in the areas directly occupied by the Nazis. The current and recent governments indeed seem well intentioned. Former PM Valls was quoted in an Atlantic Magazine article as follows:
The problem, this time around is not France's government; it is recent Islamist immigrants. It is not possible, unless the Government wants an internal war, to really bring matters under control. French troops cannot surround each synagogue, each Kosher market or now, as we learn from the Kroll murder, each private house.

Other European countries such as Belgium, Denmark and Sweden have experienced similar strife. The Great Debate question is whether the Jewish people can safely exist and build a life and a community anywhere besides Israel, the U.S., Canada & Australia?

I believe the answer is a firm "no."
What happened to Minelle Kroll is a horrible crime. However, incidents like these are rare indeed. The French police are investigating and I believe they will bring the perpetrator to justice.

Yes, the Dreyfus case occurred in France, but that was over one hundred years ago. I think though that to see France in anyway as antisemitic country is simply wrong. France struggles as the USA does to control extreme factions as the recent problems with neo-Nazi groups in Virginia. Democratic countries always face an internal tension. They want to avoid becoming police states, but they need the right balance of policemen and soldiers to protect themselves from internal and external threats.

Many of the problems that France has with Muslims do not exist in the U.S. The reason why is that France has deliberately kept Muslims down. It has refused to create many job opportunities for these immigrants. Plus, they have zero chance of becoming citizens. The USA has always done a great job of assimilating immigrants from vastly different areas of the world. In Salt Lake City, we have a Muslim community on our west side. Its not known to many people that we actually have two or three Mosques. The Muslims here have caused no trouble and are being integrated into our community. If France would be more willing to allow Muslims to become French, I think much of the racial/religious tension in that country could be abated. This assumes the ability of France to make these changes though and that may not be possible.

Ultimately, the Jews must choose where they wish to live. I suspect most Jews will continue to remain in France.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: New York Area
15,651 posts, read 6,176,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
What happened to Minelle Kroll is a horrible crime. However, incidents like these are rare indeed. The French police are investigating and I believe they will bring the perpetrator to justice.

Yes, the Dreyfus case occurred in France, but that was over one hundred years ago. I think though that to see France in anyway as antisemitic country is simply wrong. France struggles as the USA does to control extreme factions as the recent problems with neo-Nazi groups in Virginia. Democratic countries always face an internal tension. They want to avoid becoming police states, but they need the right balance of policemen and soldiers to protect themselves from internal and external threats.

Many of the problems that France has with Muslims do not exist in the U.S. The reason why is that France has deliberately kept Muslims down. It has refused to create many job opportunities for these immigrants. Plus, they have zero chance of becoming citizens. The USA has always done a great job of assimilating immigrants from vastly different areas of the world. In Salt Lake City, we have a Muslim community on our west side. Its not known to many people that we actually have two or three Mosques. The Muslims here have caused no trouble and are being integrated into our community. If France would be more willing to allow Muslims to become French, I think much of the racial/religious tension in that country could be abated. This assumes the ability of France to make these changes though and that may not be possible.

Ultimately, the Jews must choose where they wish to live. I suspect most Jews will continue to remain in France.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. However, Jews have always been kept on the fringes, almost to the extent that Muslims have. France is not by any means an inclusive or welcoming society.

Also, the sheer numbers of Muslims makes this hard. It's much easier to create an "Algeria in France" than a "Pakistan in Utah."

And as far as citizenship, they are often voting citizens. See Is there a “Muslim vote” in France? - Brookings Institution.While I have not researched this my understanding is this started when Algerians, who were I believe French citizens of right, migrated to their "home" country when newly independent Algeria was less than competent at management.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:36 AM
 
3,871 posts, read 1,900,858 times
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England is getting more dangerous, too. One of its major political parties is lead by a man who might be an anti-Semite.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...mitism/556775/

America also might be trending anti-Jewish. At the last Democratic convention most delegates voice-voted against Israel's right to exist, which was covered up only by the machinations of the Party chair. The Party's old Eastern European flavor socialism is being replaced by a newer 3rd world oriented one.

Historically Jews have been targeted by the Right. This is well known and true. Jews were accused of being left-wing oriented, which was also true and was one of the reasons the Right resented them.

Now, the ire against Jews is sourced more from the Left. The Left's anti-nationstate traits have come out, including against Israel. More, the Left supports the Palestinians as one of the oppressed peoples it likes.

With the Left's reorientation along an anti-Semitic axis, regimes that once tolerated Jews might be replaced by ones that don't.

There are also Rightist groups, especially in Europe, that are resurgent and might tumble into their bad old ways.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:54 AM
 
5,818 posts, read 5,154,290 times
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Better questions are: Will Israel ever stop murdering Palestinians?

And

Why is Israel's genocidal aggression toward the Palestinian people not condemned by the United States and all decent human beings in every country?

And,

Why does the US continue to lick Israel's buttocks?
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:33 AM
 
2,671 posts, read 2,348,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 601halfdozen0theother View Post
Better questions are: Will Israel ever stop murdering Palestinians?

And

Why is Israel's genocidal aggression toward the Palestinian people not condemned by the United States and all decent human beings in every country?

And,

Why does the US continue to lick Israel's buttocks?

If Israel wanted to perpetrate a genocide against the Palestinian people, they would. Or do you think the rocks that the Palestinians are armed with would fend off a nuclear attack?
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