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Old 04-20-2018, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Various
9,049 posts, read 3,505,448 times
Reputation: 5470

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am an liberal or leftist (not sure of which is a better term) who believes in the Constitution, supporting democracies as allies, and many deep-rooted American values. Mostly, I am an American and believe this is one of the greatest countries on earth.

America got that way because of the people it has drawn from other countries. Until the 1930's the U.S. has offered almost no social "safety net." Coming to a country where the minute you set foot you had to work like crazy and, to boot, in most cases learn a new language was a daunting prospect. Though it is a fictional work, Fiddler on the Roof was based upon historical fact. Its setting, the Western part of Czarist Russia, and now modern Moldova, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were always what should have been paradoxical, despotic, anarchic and chaotic at the same time. The "government" such as it was provided few if any services, and did not enforce law and order. The famous Kishinev Pogroms were a well-known highlight of this state of affairs. People who wanted to make something of their lives simply had no future among drunken peasants that wanted nothing more than to kill them.

One of my four great-grandfathers, and the only one I know anything about was a jeweler in Kiev, Ukraine. A conscript in the Czar's army, he fled when the Army wanted to force a renewal of his term because of his skills. He and my great-grandmother (an arranged marriage in the Jewish tradition of Fiddler on the Roof) fled to New York by way of Montreal. He became a shoemaker in Yonkers, and never really struck it rich. One of their daughters was my maternal grandmother. She married my grandfather, a dentist. They bought a small house in Yonkers. While their lives were not perfect (I understand a bad marriage and alcohol abuse on the part of my grandfather were involved) they put their son (my uncle) and my mother through Syracuse University. My uncle became an executive at a major TV network. My mother became a housewife, and spurred my father to success as an interior architect after an unsuccessful Cornell education as an engineer. I went to Cornell and Boston University Law School and became a lawyer. Only in America would this levitation be possible.

And it was mostly through "the Constitution," (through grudging tolerance for Jews) and hard work, as well as a belief that there really are no limits to growth (except I'm short and didn't grow to the sky), that made all of this possible. Their was no real money in the family and we received little government assistance, except Navy-paid and GI Bill education for my father, and a small amount of unemployment assistance for brief periods between jobs for me.

My OWN life has not been perfect. However, I don't look to find fault or place blames for any of my misfortunes on other people, the government, Donald Trump, etc.

How do I rate myself a left-winger and a liberal? I believe that governments should raise money openly through taxes and not through speed traps, petty regulations and fines, etc. I support integration in the schools and work place, though I am against affirmative action. I am pro-choice. I believe in the public school system. And I support causes anathema to many conservatives, including legalized marijuana and reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone.

I believe this is consistent with progressivism.
Interesting post and questions. However the bolded section is nonsense. Such “levitation” is common place in many countries.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:17 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,214 posts, read 11,290,935 times
Reputation: 20827
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am an liberal or leftist (not sure of which is a better term) who believes in the Constitution, supporting democracies as allies, and many deep-rooted American values. Mostly, I am an American and believe this is one of the greatest countries on earth.

America got that way because of the people it has drawn from other countries. Until the 1930's the U.S. has offered almost no social "safety net." Coming to a country where the minute you set foot you had to work like crazy and, to boot, in most cases learn a new language was a daunting prospect. Though it is a fictional work, Fiddler on the Roof was based upon historical fact. Its setting, the Western part of Czarist Russia, and now modern Moldova, Ukraine, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia were always what should have been paradoxical, despotic, anarchic and chaotic at the same time. The "government" such as it was provided few if any services, and did not enforce law and order. The famous Kishinev Pogroms were a well-known highlight of this state of affairs. People who wanted to make something of their lives simply had no future among drunken peasants that wanted nothing more than to kill them.

One of my four great-grandfathers, and the only one I know anything about was a jeweler in Kiev, Ukraine. A conscript in the Czar's army, he fled when the Army wanted to force a renewal of his term because of his skills. He and my great-grandmother (an arranged marriage in the Jewish tradition of Fiddler on the Roof) fled to New York by way of Montreal. He became a shoemaker in Yonkers, and never really struck it rich. One of their daughters was my maternal grandmother. She married my grandfather, a dentist. They bought a small house in Yonkers. While their lives were not perfect (I understand a bad marriage and alcohol abuse on the part of my grandfather were involved) they put their son (my uncle) and my mother through Syracuse University. My uncle became an executive at a major TV network. My mother became a housewife, and spurred my father to success as an interior architect after an unsuccessful Cornell education as an engineer. I went to Cornell and Boston University Law School and became a lawyer. Only in America would this levitation be possible.

And it was mostly through "the Constitution," (through grudging tolerance for Jews) and hard work, as well as a belief that there really are no limits to growth (except I'm short and didn't grow to the sky), that made all of this possible. Their was no real money in the family and we received little government assistance, except Navy-paid and GI Bill education for my father, and a small amount of unemployment assistance for brief periods between jobs for me.

My OWN life has not been perfect. However, I don't look to find fault or place blames for any of my misfortunes on other people, the government, Donald Trump, etc.

How do I rate myself a left-winger and a liberal? I believe that governments should raise money openly through taxes and not through speed traps, petty regulations and fines, etc. I support integration in the schools and work place, though I am against affirmative action. I am pro-choice. I believe in the public school system. And I support causes anathema to many conservatives, including legalized marijuana and reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone.

I believe this is consistent with progressivism.

Some great points here; But I believe that a large part of the problem originates from the general decline in respect for the dignity of work -- and that can be traced to the exansion of the low-skill, personal-service-centered post-industrial economy.

Suburban Johnny and Suzie Snowflake get their degrees (far too often in some low-value liberal arts major). They expect a generous salary, but too often are impelled toward a back-row desk in a large office modeled upon a classroom. The work is repetitive and not very challenging -- a "big, long first period" that drags on until you retire, and can concentrate on the Next Big Event.

Personally, I addressed this by returning to a 24/7 predominately blue-collar work environment -- much less-corrupted by petty office politics; but I paid the price in the search for life partners. The manipulators of Madison Avenue and Hollywood are quite aware that the dollars which fuel their enterprises are usually not the direct, and usually, immediate product of physical participation in the productive process. The family purchasing agent is usually the "trailing spouse" (and less likely to be continuously conscious of the impact of higher marginal tax rates upon the two-paycheck family).

Our economy has progressed to a point where the physical basics of life are inexpensive, and becoming more so; it's all the frills, the desire for immediate gratification, customized products, and personal attention that increase the size of the price tag; that, and the foreknowledge that you are likely to require more of them in the later stages of life.

I can offer no easy answer to this dilemma; The Founding Fathers spoke of the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", and in those harder times, the latter was usually expressed in terms of property -- usually physical rather than intellectual. But as civilization and industrialization increased the quality of life, not as much could be done to increase the quantity of time, and when one is young, struggling, encumbered, and confronted by a structure which seems determined to increase the intensity of the latter, the desire for more personal autonomy intensifies.

It's a new frontier in the struggle for human progress we all have to deal with, and most of those caught up in it seem to be willing to fall for the short-sighted sucker-bait peddled by the supposed "progressives", who prey largely upon the insecurities of an over-sensitized and increasingly-feminized audience --and are determined to create more of them.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 04-20-2018 at 01:59 AM..
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,514,350 times
Reputation: 6253
The short answer is yes, of course.

The idea of being a liberal has only been severely tainted in recent times with the extremist left aping the title and calling moderate liberals rightists, but we (the more normal people) all know these overly-sensitive idiots are not true liberals.
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Old 04-20-2018, 04:40 AM
 
11,445 posts, read 10,427,992 times
Reputation: 6283
I'm a liberal but I'm disappointed with the liberals who support nanny state policies
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma
2,186 posts, read 1,165,824 times
Reputation: 1015
Imo, liberals have it right mostly on social issues like legalizing pot, abortion and gay rights(if the federal government must be involved in marriage, which it should not at all). But, liberals are not constitutional on welfare and other nanny state fiscal issues.

Conservatives are wrong on many social issues, yet “appear” to be constitutional on fiscal issues.

At the end of the day, neither are constitutional.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
24,328 posts, read 17,065,160 times
Reputation: 35597
I would say that the OP is much like most of America in that he walks a line down the center with a slight lean to the Left.

I do the same but with a lean to the Right. I believe in America and I respect the Constitution and believe in the Second amendment. I also believe that everyone should have a chance in this country as long as they obey the laws and immigrate legally. I don't like the idea of abortion but I respect a woman's right to choose. I have gay friends and believe they should be allowed to get married. I also believe that people do need help now and again and society has a responsibility to lend a hand with welfare etc.. but I don't agree that someone should be on welfare from the womb to the tomb. I do believe in personal responsibility and not blaming the world for our woes like so many people do now a days.
I like Trump and will vote for him again even though I believe in man made climate change concerns. I know I'm a conundrum.

I think it is the Dems in general that like to put people in boxes and label them ie. if you voted for Trump you are a deplorable that hates immigrants and anyone that is not white, loves guns, wants to keep women down and would let the big corporations destroy the world for their profit.

Keep walking the line OP like most of us do. It is the extremists in both parties that are making the most noise and causing the friction.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:34 AM
 
14,376 posts, read 18,320,068 times
Reputation: 43047
People forget that this country was founded by radicals. There is no way that the founding fathers thought they were establishing a static system that would never evolve. They were the liberals of their day, ffs. They overthrew a damn monarchy. You don't get more radical than that.

I'm a far-left liberal and my favorite nonfiction books are those that focus on our history, and my favorite repeat vacation spots are Philadelphia and Washington, DC. There is an annotated copy of the US Constitution next to my bed.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:48 AM
 
Location: New York Area
34,746 posts, read 16,767,477 times
Reputation: 29883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiehoff View Post
Interesting post and questions. However the bolded section is nonsense. Such “levitation” is common place in many countries.
Can you give some examples?

I have a friend whose grandfather was a second-generation American, his parents, like many of my ancestors, coming from Czarist Russia. He operated a liquor store that did not do well. His two sons, one of them my friend's father, became successful attorneys. Both of them attended an Ivy League law School. My friend graduated an Ivy League undergraduate university and law school. My friend's sister graduated an Ivy League undergraduate and business school, his brother an Ivy League undergraduate and medical school. All are quite successful.

I'm sure it's common in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel and maybe the UK. While examples exist I doubt it's common elsewhere. Most countries either aren't open to immigration or tradition-bound promotional policies.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:52 AM
 
Location: New York Area
34,746 posts, read 16,767,477 times
Reputation: 29883
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
I can offer no easy answer to this dilemma; The Founding Fathers spoke of the rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", and in those harder times, the latter was usually expressed in terms of property -- usually physical rather than intellectual. But as civilization and industrialization increased the quality of life, not as much could be done to increase the quantity of time, and when one is young, struggling, encumbered, and confronted by a structure which seems determined to increase the intensity of the latter, the desire for more personal autonomy intensifies.
When I was about 10, and not too happy with some garbage at my school I asked my father if the Declaration of Independence guaranteed my happiness. He told me I was free to "pursue" happiness, but there was no guarantee I would always or even often be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
It's a new frontier in the struggle for human progress we all have to deal with, and most of those caught up in it seem to be willing to fall for the short-sighted sucker-bait peddled by the supposed "progressives", who prey largely upon the insecurities of an over-sensitized and increasingly-feminized audience --and are determined to create more of them.
Spot on! Alexis de Tocqueville warned, in Democracy in America of the risk that people would "vote themselves" more than could be delivered.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Morrison, CO
34,177 posts, read 18,482,484 times
Reputation: 25762
Classical Liberal, yes. Current Liberal/Progressive (Democrats), NO. They are inconsistent with basic Rights of Free Speech, the Right to Keep, and Bear Arms, and others. They believe Government GRANTS you Rights, and put too much faith in the STATE to be benevolent. They do not believe in the American values that have caused people to want to come here for centuries.
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