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Old 06-20-2018, 08:50 AM
Status: "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,771 posts, read 21,080,213 times
Reputation: 9358

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Seems like the core divided issue on the immigration debate is which matters more: the needs of the people wanting to immigrate or the needs of people already living in the host nation. Which matters more? Should both be considered equally? Should only one need be the deciding factor?
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:13 AM
Status: "On The Lookout" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,396 posts, read 61,765,972 times
Reputation: 31955
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Seems like the core divided issue on the immigration debate is...
I see the dividing issue as about identifying immigrants (a good thing)
from the illegal border crossing criminals of various flavors.

A couple laws that will charge business owners with a FELONY criminal charge
for hiring anyone without the right to work should solve most of the issues.

Undoing the damage WE HAVE DONE to the poor countries rooted in our 'war on drugs'
will solve whatever issues are left over.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:36 AM
 
Location: too far from the sea
19,629 posts, read 18,693,933 times
Reputation: 33345
The politicians will never start finding the employers who hire them. They just won't. They must know that's what we want but they won't do it. Hence, the illegals who keep coming.

Of course the current residents of this country deserve help more than newcomers. But many right wing people don't even want to help the needy here. The elderly live in ugly cramped housing in many cases and the working poor live in poor conditions too. People on welfare need help getting jobs and keeping their health insurance instead of being worse off for working. The list goes on.

Our government is creating a sad situation by practically inviting all these people to try to just walk into our country without birth certificates, background checks, vaccinations, and guarantees of jobs. LEGAL immigrants are required to do all these things.

So, if the opening question is legit--of course we should help our own people first. But we don't even do that very well.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,891 posts, read 4,189,061 times
Reputation: 3097
First of all, lets define a few terms before diving into this subject.

What is an immigrant: In short, an immigrant is a foreign national who has applied for residency in another country. The key word here is "applied".

What is a refugee: A refugee is a foreign national seeking asylum in another country to escape life threatening conditions from their native country.

What is an illegal alien: A person who crosses another nation borders without meeting the requirements above.

Now we have to ask just why do we have a government and laws governing our country? The Declaration of Independence states why: "........that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,....................."

So our government was formed to secure the rights of those people who fall under the "consent of the governed". Our Constitution only applies to the United States and its Territories, it does not extend to other countries.

The needs of the people of the governed must come first, for this is why our government was formed. Immigrants who come into this country are extended the same protection as any other person in this country, and when, if they choose, to become a citizen of this country, then all benefits of citizenship are extended to them. Refugees coming into this country are given the same protection under the law as a citizen, however, they are not immigrants and therefore they can not apply for citizenship, they must return to their native country when conditions allow.

The saying applies here: How can you expect to care for others if you do not care for yourself first.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,149 posts, read 2,953,575 times
Reputation: 9318
The population of this country has more than doubled in my lifetime. We don't need to become like the overpopulated hell-holes of the third world. It is time to shut the door.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,079 posts, read 10,271,083 times
Reputation: 20109
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
The politicians will never start finding the employers who hire them. They just won't. They must know that's what we want but they won't do it. Hence, the illegals who keep coming.

Of course the current residents of this country deserve help more than newcomers. But many right wing people don't even want to help the needy here. The elderly live in ugly cramped housing in many cases and the working poor live in poor conditions too. People on welfare need help getting jobs and keeping their health insurance instead of being worse off for working. The list goes on.

Our government is creating a sad situation by practically inviting all these people to try to just walk into our country without birth certificates, background checks, vaccinations, and guarantees of jobs. LEGAL immigrants are required to do all these things.

So, if the opening question is legit--of course we should help our own people first. But we don't even do that very well.

First of all, since you mention it, I don't think the opening question is legit. It's a very manipulative way to state the issue.


Eventually, particularly with some of the things that are happening right now, it's going to dawn on the people of this nation that we're not who we say we are. That we have a false image of our nation and our character as a people. That will be a good start.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,108,098 times
Reputation: 7503
Both are important. We don't need to live in a primitive, polar, unbalanced, one-vs-the-other world. 1+1 is more worthy than 2-1.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:09 PM
 
6,413 posts, read 1,273,075 times
Reputation: 16262
I think that IF the great majority of people in this country were generally satisfied with their lives and had hope for brighter future for themselves, they would be more willing to accept and help immigrants. So much of the bad feeling against immigrants, I think, comes from people who are disappointed in their own lives that are not even close to "the American Dream" of previous decades and who have lost hope of anything improving for them. In that case, I think these people think, "Why should we do so much for people who haven't shed their blood and sweat for this country as I and my ancestors have, when I don't have a good job and can barely feed my family?" And why should blacks and some other minorities feel the desire to extend equality to those who are new citizens or have not yet gained citizenship if they believe they have not yet achieved equality for themselves?

It is hard to feel generous to others when one is bitter and resentful, I think, so -- in short -- I think that the government needs to work on improving the lives of many of its citizens instead of worrying and caring more about the lives of people who are newly arrived to the U.S.

Last edited by katharsis; 06-20-2018 at 02:28 PM..
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,108,098 times
Reputation: 7503
We've always had people coming into this land, as even the founders of this country did. Only how we react to them has changed. A great contrast in showing this is comparing our current times vs. when the Statue of Liberty first came to and graced our shores. We had dignity and respect in previous times, and also were respected in return. The opposite is very much the case now. Many even have no respect for themselves. Humanity devalued to the level of dirt.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:36 PM
Status: "On The Lookout" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: The Triad (NC)
28,396 posts, read 61,765,972 times
Reputation: 31955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
A great contrast in showing this is comparing our current times
vs. when the Statue of Liberty first came to and graced our shores.

We had dignity and respect in previous times...
We also had capacity for Millions of new and untrained industrial workers...
most of whom would soon qualify for union wage rates and decent benefits.

The US (it can be argued) should genuinely embrace policies to REDUCE our numbers.
If this is even remotely the case then the LAST thing we should do is to ADD extra.

What we should be doing is working to help these people REMAIN where they are.
To give them confidence for a decent future where they were born and their families are buried.
A notion which is the largest part of what NAFTA was supposed to help them with. (But that's a different thread)
--

Especially so since most of the reason they come north is response to other failed US efforts.
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