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A couple of days ago some guy lost his job because he was a pool manager (or something) at his community pool and questioned a black lady about her residence. The social media verdict was that he was a racist and sjw found out where he worked and started calling the company.
Not many companies nowadays have guts to stand against the mob - so the guy got fired.
Let's not discuss here if the guy is a racist or has bias against certain people. That is not the point. Even if he does have bias - this is a free country last time I checked and anyone is free to have any bias.
As long as that person does not disrupt his workplace - his/her views or biases should not be a reason to fire that person. Even if those biases are not politically correct. The only exception is if that person is somehow represents the company (a CEO or some kind of high level representative).
Also please don't say the employment is at will and a company can fire anyone at any time for no reason. There is a long list of the exceptions to that rule (religion, nationality, disability, etc).
Should a conduct outside of the company be included as well if that conduct is not against the law?
Also, under the current rules, can that guy sue the company for wrongful termination and what are his chances of getting a settlement?
Should a conduct outside of the company be included as well if that conduct is not against the law?
Also, under the current rules, can that guy sue the company for wrongful termination and what are his chances of getting a settlement?
Some years ago I had to sign and have notarized a document for my company that had a morals clause in it. Basically swearing that I was a fine upstanding citizen of good moral character. This was independent of the company behavioral expectations that were also required to be acknowledged and signed off. I don't know the actual legal standing of such a document but I feel like when I signed that document I knowingly gave them the right to fire me for unbecoming behavior outside of work, whether it was directly tied to work or not.
So do you know whether this guy might have had a similar situation with his company?
It depends on the outside of work behavior and the nature of the work the person is performing. Would you want a man who beat his dog to death working in a veterinary clinic?
A couple of days ago some guy lost his job because he was a pool manager (or something) at his community pool and questioned a black lady about her residence. The social media verdict was that he was a racist and sjw found out where he worked and started calling the company.
Not many companies nowadays have guts to stand against the mob - so the guy got fired.
Let's not discuss here if the guy is a racist or has bias against certain people. That is not the point. Even if he does have bias - this is a free country last time I checked and anyone is free to have any bias.
As long as that person does not disrupt his workplace - his/her views or biases should not be a reason to fire that person. Even if those biases are not politically correct. The only exception is if that person is somehow represents the company (a CEO or some kind of high level representative).
Also please don't say the employment is at will and a company can fire anyone at any time for no reason. There is a long list of the exceptions to that rule (religion, nationality, disability, etc).
Should a conduct outside of the company be included as well if that conduct is not against the law?
Also, under the current rules, can that guy sue the company for wrongful termination and what are his chances of getting a settlement?
This is nothing new, and of course you should be able to be fired if you are a poor representative of a company’s values. When I got my OT license, I had to include letters from two people attesting to my “morals” whatever that means. Teachers get fired for posting pics on Facebook of them topless or partying. People have gotten fired for DUI in their off time, or smoking a joint in their off time. Companies want to control how they are portrayed, and if an employers conduct costs them business, why should they keep them? Employees harassing black people at a public venue (for the crime of “Living while Black”) seems a good way for a company to lose a lot of business whether the guy was on or off duty.
It depends on the outside of work behavior and the nature of the work the person is performing. Would you want a man who beat his dog to death working in a veterinary clinic?
Wouldn't that be a a felony to beat a dog?
But having a views on some political matter is not. See the difference?
Also, I agree that there are positions that require some higher standards of behavior. Especially for positions in authority (police officers for example).
But even in such cases - there should be some kind of due process and company have some kind of protocol to follow to determine if the conduct was really outrageous. Not like in this case when the guy was fired several hours after the video of him (doing nothing illegal or saying nothing outrageous) was posted online.
Hmm, not a good example for your question since the guy was performing job duties (ascertaining residence of someone who wanted to use the pool) and was fired for it.
Personally, I believe he got a raw deal. Our beach attendants ascertain the residence of everybody who uses our public beach. Town residents, and their guests if accompanied, are free while non-residents pay an entry fee, which is also scaled for In-County and Out of County.
As to your question, many jobs have some sort of morals clause in their contracts/employee handbooks, especially professional jobs.
It wasn't so long ago that teachers could be fired if they were seen having a beer. Doctors have licensing requirements that can get them into trouble for drinking. Military officers, as well as enlisted, have a Code of Conduct under the UCMJ that can get them various judicial and non-judicial punishments for off duty behavior. An example of that is a DUI. Get one and your first stop Monday morning is your commander's office to let him know. Even speeding tickets can hang you up in the military.
This is nothing new, and of course you should be able to be fired if you are a poor representative of a company’s values. When I got my OT license, I had to include letters from two people attesting to my “morals” whatever that means. Teachers get fired for posting pics on Facebook of them topless or partying. People have gotten fired for DUI in their off time, or smoking a joint in their off time. Companies want to control how they are portrayed, and if an employers conduct costs them business, why should they keep them? Employees harassing black people at a public venue (for the crime of “Living while Black”) seems a good way for a company to lose a lot of business whether the guy was on or off duty.
Again, I am not talking about positions that required some kind of higher standards (police officers, teachers, etc) that are supposed to be an example for others.
So yes, a police officer who post racist views should be fired since those views affect his impartiality on the job. But what about a Joe Schmo assembly worker? His racist views (as long as he doesn't share them with coworkers) don't affect his job performance.
This is my point. 95% of regular Joe Schmo people don't represent companies they work for.
They just go to work and perform their work duties. A company that employs 100s or 1000s of people should not lose any business if one of those people happen to have some views that some woke sjw find offensive.
And the company lose business only if they refuse to fire that person. But if there was a law prohibiting firing people for their legal out of work behavior - the company wouldn't lose any business since they won't be able to do anything about that person.
Hmm, not a good example for your question since the guy was performing job duties (ascertaining residence of someone who wanted to use the pool) and was fired for it.
Personally, I believe he got a raw deal. Our beach attendants ascertain the residence of everybody who uses our public beach. Town residents, and their guests if accompanied, are free while non-residents pay an entry fee, which is also scaled for In-County and Out of County.
.
Not only he lost his position as a pool manager (or whatever volunteer position it was), but he also lost his job at a company he worked for that has nothing to do with his off-time pool position.
And he lost his job based on doing nothing illegal at his free time.
Are you saying is it an OK situation that anyone can call your company and say you are a bad person and they fire you without even letting you explain your side of the story. Only because they are afraid to be associated with you (a bad person in someone's view).
Not only he lost his position as a pool manager (or whatever volunteer position it was), but he also lost his job at a company he worked for that has nothing to do with his off-time pool position.
And he lost his job based on doing nothing illegal at his free time. Are you saying is it an OK situation that anyone can call your company and say you are a bad person and they fire you without even letting you explain your side of the story. Only because they are afraid to be associated with you (a bad person in someone's view).
Not at all. But it is the reality of what is happening.
Not at all. But it is the reality of what is happening.
Yes, this is a reality.
But shouldn't there be a law to change this reality? What the point to have the 1st amendment if a person who exercises it loses his/her job?
Last edited by Banbuk77; 07-08-2018 at 08:55 AM..
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