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Old 09-20-2018, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,079 posts, read 10,275,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homelessinseattle View Post
I think our founding fathers would roll in their graves if they could see what's happing to this country.
It's still a good place to live tho.
I think we have no idea what people living 240 years ago would be thinking. Particularly since -- like today -- they were not all of one mind on much of anything.

 
Old 09-20-2018, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,079 posts, read 10,275,420 times
Reputation: 20109
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
That wouldn't happen in a classroom. Teachers are not allowed to touch students and they probably would get in trouble for swearing like that. But the kids also shouldn't be allowed to talk back to the teacher and swear at the teacher. It's an example of a breakdown in society, a lowering of standards. By that time, if this film is to be believed, it had already happened.

It didn't start with "diversity." When did diversity start? Probably most of it started in the late 1800s with all the new immigrants coming to work in the mills. In the North that's how diversity started. And fighting amongst ethnic groups--the Irish, the Italians, the French, the Polish. But things were getting better, immigrants had assimilated, and even the race issue was improving during the 1960s.

I think it was during the 1960s when people wanted to make a better world. That's when it started, but some idiots took it too far. Women got better treatment, blacks got better treatment, the emphasis was shifted to less materialism and a happier quality of life instead, no more wars, help the poor, etc.

I don't know who it was who took things too far. People who make money off wars and weren't happy that most people didn't want more wars. Maybe they pushed back? Also, people who get rich when people buy more "stuff." Greedy companies advertising "stuff" to buy, more and more stuff. How about universities who got richer by raising prices? In the mid '80s when students complained, the universities said they didn't care. They would recruit rich foreign students who could afford the high price.

It became quantity above quality. I saw the quality of education decline during the '80s, maybe even the '70s. Things got too laid back and easy. Parents supposedly didn't think they should discipline their kids anymore. If the kids can't sit still, can't concentrate, they are not going to learn anything. Schools lowered their standards. Colleges probably lowered their standards to accept not so smart students.

You can see the breakdown reflected in our public schools, for example. Discipline is actually frowned upon and parents will sue a teacher. That's backwards. The teacher is the boss and sets the rules. The students need to follow the rules--if not, you get kids climbing all over the desks, throwing things, acting out=chaos. I've seen it too often. The kids know that their parents won't make them behave--no rules? That's fine, kids will be kids, and who cares.

And the falling apart of families is a contributing issue to the breakdown of society. People have to work too much. Not enough family time. Not enough flexible hours. Too much greed on the part of corporations just bleeds the life out of the working person. Mothers need more time off when their kids are young. But if they took the time off, the company would replace them=corporate greed.

Hmmm, I think it comes down to greed in a lot of ways. Quantity, not quality. There isn't enough quality in our lives anymore. Everything is about money and greed. And not quality of life. Is it the military industrial complex, whatever that is?
I pretty much agree that that wouldn't happen in a real classroom...although I've seen some pretty weird and awful teachers and administrators in my day...but at least we can say that's not at all a typical classroom.

When did diversity start? Depends on what one is referring to, but since the earliest settlers were white christians moving into a land of American Indians who had somewhat animistic perceptions of life...I'd say diversity started in 1513 or earlier.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,079 posts, read 10,275,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by margaretBartle View Post
Can you describe what you mean by "breakdown of society"?

When I look back at European history, I see horrendous damage being done to the environment, and to the people.

I think most people would be horrified at the kind of life working-class people had to live in the 1950s, or 1900s or 1850s or 1750s or 1650s etc.

Noam Chomsky made a very good film called "Manufacturing Consent" back in the 1980s. It's dated in some ways, but it has a perspective that many people today still don't get :

The media is owned by the ruling elite, and they divide the public into two groups - the 20% "intelligensia" and the 80% masses.

For the masses, the purpose of media is distraction - provide them celebrities and spectator sports Politics is just another spectator sport, and reporting is like a horse-race, who's ahead and who's coming up from behind. And it's sold like cigarettes - you vote for the person who most resonates with you emotionally.

The 20% that are the intelligensia are the people who are politically engaged - they join civic clubs, they watch the talking-head Sunday morning shows, they attend the party caucuses. Thiese are the people the propaganda is targetting.

This also is the group that controls the media. They talk to each other, and think they are the world.
They know they are missing some ethnic gruops, but they are oblivious to the 80% of the public that does not have a platform.

This 20% is usually what people, when they look back on history, refer to as "society". That is what is going through a sea-change now. The result of the concentration of wealth is that many of that 20% are dropping down.

Also, criminal activity is so endemic now, new influencers come from the 80% who do not have a family history of social norms that are shared with the other intelligensia. Many of them are criminals who got rich by ripping people off, not through using family connections to get a proper job that keeps them in the intelligensia.

To get a serious answert to your question, you are going to have to do some deep thought abuot what you mean by "breakdown of society" - separating out what is being publicized for the first time, from what is really a structural change.
I think you make excellent points here.

Here are just a few examples of what I would call a breakdown in our society:

The Revolutionary War
The Civil War
Jim Crow era, flourishing of KKK
The "red scare" and McCarthyism
Donald Trump

To a large extent, one's view of "a breakdown in society" is based on their personal beliefs about various issues.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,559 posts, read 1,750,449 times
Reputation: 4567
Corruption
Selfishness
Destruction of past seeds of morality - family, church, scouting etc.
Destruction of hierarchy needed for order
Catering to desires of fringes over those of the masses.

We are closely mirroring the downfall of the Roman Empire in spite of legions of Ingsoc agents screaming to the contrary.

Do we know of past societies, on a similar path, that successfully turned things around? We certainly know of previously successful societies that crumbled from within.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,559 posts, read 1,750,449 times
Reputation: 4567
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Society has been challenged for generations. But it’s resilient. Decency, morals and respect for others always prevail in the long run.
Name one society that managed to turn around a downward spiral of moral decay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fkAZfPr-0E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNnqjbojqjE
 
Old 09-20-2018, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,109,530 times
Reputation: 7503
There is a certain balance that exists from time to time where America is stable and healthy. And as described in good detail directly above (phetaroi), there are also unbalanced and unhealthy periods that poison the country. We are in another such latter period currently.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 09-20-2018 at 10:14 AM..
 
Old 09-20-2018, 10:44 AM
 
1,278 posts, read 1,058,302 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoGuy View Post
Name one society that managed to turn around a downward spiral of moral decay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fkAZfPr-0E



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNnqjbojqjE
The United States. It abolished Slavery, enacted civil rights, enacted rights for workers to unionize and gave them a voice and bargaining power in the industrialization of this country. The EPA ended industrial pollution that at one point had the Saginaw river so polluted it was on fire.

There are many of examples.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 10:50 AM
 
1,278 posts, read 1,058,302 times
Reputation: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I pretty much agree that that wouldn't happen in a real classroom...although I've seen some pretty weird and awful teachers and administrators in my day...but at least we can say that's not at all a typical classroom.

When did diversity start? Depends on what one is referring to, but since the earliest settlers were white christians moving into a land of American Indians who had somewhat animistic perceptions of life...I'd say diversity started in 1513 or earlier.
Actually, if you look back in history it has always been happening.

The invasion of Egypt by the Chariot driving Hyksos
The invasion of Eastern Europe by the Mongols
The Romans invading the heathen lands of the Gauls and the Pagan tribes of Germania
The Murderous Angles, Saxons and Jutes invading the poor Britons
The Murderous Norsemen invading the homeland of the poor Angles, Saxons and Jutes

It goes on and on and on...

It is a human history
 
Old 09-20-2018, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Mars City
5,091 posts, read 2,109,530 times
Reputation: 7503
Humans are flawed. It's good when we can admit that.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 11:45 AM
 
2,907 posts, read 3,027,049 times
Reputation: 8343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Humans are flawed. It's good when we can admit that.



So true, without humans there would never have been wars !
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