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Old 09-19-2018, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,329 posts, read 9,102,284 times
Reputation: 18653

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Words fail me at the utter ignorance of history behind such a concept. We have our current legal concept precisely because of the abuses of such a system. Shall we burn them at the stake or drown them as well?
Excellent post.

This doesn't get too far from Martin Niemoeller's statement that: “First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

There are no shortcuts to justice...no benefits to looking for shortcuts...and shortcuts to justice is not a concept that this nation stands on to be able to see that we are different than much of the world.

 
Old 09-19-2018, 11:37 PM
 
497 posts, read 115,141 times
Reputation: 221
Nope, ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty or society will be broken.

It's better that 10 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be incarcerated
 
Old 09-19-2018, 11:40 PM
 
6,895 posts, read 1,676,063 times
Reputation: 4922
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildingLover View Post
Nope, ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty or society will be broken.

It's better that 10 guilty people go free than 1 innocent person be incarcerated
I realize thats the way its supposed to be, but more and more today, public opinion is trending towards guilty until proven innocent. I do not think this happened by coincidence though.

Slow and methodical conditioning is turning us into very obedient and compliant subjects.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 01:06 AM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,588 posts, read 1,654,311 times
Reputation: 5948
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
Why is it any more heinous than any other crime against persons?

The presumption of innocence is the basis of a polite society. If you want to return to the law of the jungle, move to the jungle. This is a civilized advanced society. We're better than presumptions of guilt. This isn't a communist nation where that crap flies.
Not yet.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 04:23 AM
 
Location: California
29,702 posts, read 32,178,326 times
Reputation: 24867
No. Sex crimes are now pretty much anything we want to say they are and we've really lost our way there. There are many things we can and should be handling ourselves without trying make everything a crime. The focus needs to be on violent acts and abuse of power, and where we have gone wrong is trying to put everything under the "sex crime" umbrella. Nobody wins.

And I'll be blunt even thought it's not PC, women have been accusing men to get back, get even, and just ruin their lives since time began. Let's not pretend we are all suddenly innocent angels who have no agency and do no wrong at this point in history when we have more power than we've ever had before. Maybe more than some can handle.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 06:19 AM
 
4,817 posts, read 2,712,821 times
Reputation: 4314
Women are more empowered to be able to speak out now, which is a good thing. Things swept under the carpet 20 years ago can be brought forward today.

However, the definition of a sex crime and sexual assault in general seems to be creeping too. Once, the definition required penetration and proof of it. Now, it seems an unwanted wayward hand accidentally brushing against someone is defined as sexual assault by the accused and the lawyer.

All the more reason to ensure the accused are innocent until proven guilty.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,965 posts, read 2,636,855 times
Reputation: 12947
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Well, murder is MUCH MUCH more heinous than any sex crime, but I still would never support such a thing, even for mass murderers.
There is more likely to be more than circumstantial evidence for a murder than there is for a sexual crime.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,965 posts, read 2,636,855 times
Reputation: 12947
In child custody cases, celebrity careers and also with political appointments, unfounded accusations are used to gain advantages or ruin careers because we owe it to the victim to believe her whether there is evidence or not. It seems unfair to the accused on the face of it...but maybe we have to accept this so victims can get justice of a sort even when they can't prove someone is guilty? Maybe we have to accept a few innocent men losing their children or their careers because otherwise we make it harder for women to get justice in cases where a man really is guilty but it cannot be proven?
 
Old 09-20-2018, 07:47 AM
 
4,817 posts, read 2,712,821 times
Reputation: 4314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone View Post
In child custody cases, celebrity careers and also with political appointments, unfounded accusations are used to gain advantages or ruin careers because we owe it to the victim to believe her whether there is evidence or not. It seems unfair to the accused on the face of it...but maybe we have to accept this so victims can get justice of a sort even when they can't prove someone is guilty? Maybe we have to accept a few innocent men losing their children or their careers because otherwise we make it harder for women to get justice in cases where a man really is guilty but it cannot be proven?
No, we do not need to accept "a few innocent men losing their children or their careers". At all.

Would you like it if you were falsely accused of something and the system said "too bad, we need to make it easier for the other party to get justice?"

With DNA testing, social media and technology these days it has never been easier for there other party to document an injustice and come forward. But blind accusations without any evidence should NEVER be allowed to overshadow the presumption of innocence. We'd end up with the Salem Witch Trials again. Which is what I'm seeing on social media with the current Kavanaugh case.
 
Old 09-20-2018, 08:53 AM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
4,130 posts, read 1,850,417 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone View Post
There is more likely to be more than circumstantial evidence for a murder than there is for a sexual crime.
Nope.

There is plenty of evidence to be collected that is nearly indisputable (DNA), along with evidence of injury or psychotropic/hypnotic pharmaceuticals. There's this thing called a "rape kit" available in every emergency department of every acute care facility in this country. Both medical & law enforcement personnel are familiar with them & all evidence collected is protected under a strict chain of custody policy.

For an actual sex crime; that is.

For a false sex crime allegation; the "evidence" presented is usually little more than being able to prove the accuser & accused were alone together for any period of time.

The consequences of false allegations rarely wait for due process of law, let alone a conviction, so if anything; the consequences for making false allegations should be taken more seriously, not the other way around.

How does relaxing the standards of proof help validate the true victims of rape?
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