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Old 09-21-2018, 09:37 AM
 
1,961 posts, read 1,066,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Sex crimes are heinous but crimes of murder are more henoius

We see it all the time. Two people have sex, man says it was consensual and woman says it wasnít.

The only solution is for women to sign a contract before sex, clearly consenting to it. Sure itís not romantic but thatís what society is coming to, in a world where society expect men (and only men) to make the first move, then the ones that do get accused of sexual assault.

If only we lived in a world where women (and only women) where expected to make the first move, therefore removing all doubt on whether the act was consensual.
Hopefully this US hysteria will die down. It is just that men hating Feminist mafia and the slanderous metoo movement enjoys too much unchecked power at the moment. Hopefully this will change as many people realize the damage they caused to a lot of innocent men.

 
Old 09-21-2018, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,366 posts, read 10,555,422 times
Reputation: 13385
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefiantNJ View Post
Hopefully this US hysteria will die down. It is just that men hating Feminist mafia and the slanderous metoo movement enjoys too much unchecked power at the moment. Hopefully this will change as many people realize the damage they caused to a lot of innocent men.
An unfortunate side effect is it also undermines a lot of legitimate victims. The politicizing of sexual assault, like in the Kavanaugh confirmations, may well result in fewer legitimate victims being taken seriously. I see this potentially going down the same road as charges of racism. The threshold for something drawing accusations of racism is so low now the word literally means nothing anymore. I learned in 2012 that I was a racist for not supporting President Obama's reelection efforts (even though I supported Herman Cain in the primaries). With that kind of stupidity clouding the conversations, we can no longer have an adult level conversation about racism. That's a shame because it still exists and is a pretty serious problem that plagues mankind. At yet, it's been reduced to little more than an eye roll inducing punchline.


I fear allegations of sexual crimes may follow a similar path. I think sexual assault is something that should be taken seriously, not politicized. I also think proposals like the OP's serve to undermine legitimate victims more than help them. Even under the presumption of innocence, an unsubstantiated allegation can literally destroy a person's life. Imagine how much worse it would be if we follow the media's model of "guilty until proven innocent?"


A woman competing for a promotion against a male coworker? Make an allegation and you're set. Running for election against a male candidate? Have a woman make an accusation and your path to the office you seek is paved! Break up with your boyfriend and want revenge? Have consensual sex one day and buyer's remorse the next? The list goes on. And the scary thing is, this stuff already happens anyway. OP's proposal not only exposes people to false accusations, but even incentivizes it.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,965 posts, read 2,636,855 times
Reputation: 12947
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Interesting way to put it...... "heinous".


Isn't that what they say in the intro to "L&O:SVU"?


Myself, I will never watch that show unless I have to be polite company. I would never watch because I don't believe that a show totally dedicated to sexual violence should be entertainment; never because there are no special victims, all people are entitled to proper prosecution of equal intensity for the crimes committed against them; and never because I believe the L&O franchise stirs the pot of unrest.


So I ask, OP, was the word "heinous" picked because that is what they say in that intro?



As to my opinion on the topic, no, I do not believe that they should and further, I believe we are being programmed by TV, by special interest groups, to accept that they should.
No, SVU isn't why I used the term heinous, at least not at the conscious level. You bring up an interesting point in regards to "special victims" though. Perhaps this "special" status is why some folks are willing to play fast and loose with the presumption of innocence in some of these cases. It's bad enough when a victim does not receive justice, but it is completely unacceptable for a special victim not to receive justice, even if that means the accused has to lose some of his or her rights.


I think most of us agree, absent any context, that the presumption of innocence should still be in effect even in regards to sexual crimes. Add in some context though, particularly political context, and all bets are apparently off.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
7,988 posts, read 6,578,950 times
Reputation: 7146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone View Post
In child custody cases, celebrity careers and also with political appointments, unfounded accusations are used to gain advantages or ruin careers because we owe it to the victim to believe her whether there is evidence or not. It seems unfair to the accused on the face of it...but maybe we have to accept this so victims can get justice of a sort even when they can't prove someone is guilty? Maybe we have to accept a few innocent men losing their children or their careers because otherwise we make it harder for women to get justice in cases where a man really is guilty but it cannot be proven?
The concept you envision here is antithetical to any system of just laws. Quite honestly, it is disgusting to imply that innocent people should suffer for the false notion that somehow it would aid us in punishing more guilty parties.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,344 posts, read 10,135,972 times
Reputation: 15427
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Not to get political, but we're seeing that proved wrong right now with Kavanaugh.

Mind you, I didn't vote for Trump nor to I support Trump. I'm neither a conservative nor a Republican. But any objective person should look at the ruckus over Kavanaugh and take pause.

Zero evidence. Zero witnesses. An accuser who cannot remember some key specifics about the incident, such as where it took place. The Democrats learned of this incident in July and haven't been able to provide any substantiation of the charges in the past two months.

And yet, we're all giving this guy the bum's rush to the stocks. There's a 'guilty until proved guilty' mentality behind a lot of this, whether it's a Supreme Court nominee or a high school Spanish teacher.

This embarrassing smear campaign is being promoted by the democrats and conducted by the media. It would never get this far (with so little evidence that any misconduct, much less a crime ever took place decades ago) ... if the onslaught was not entirely politically motivated. It's hard to imagine how even the party-faithful cannot be disgusted by even the pretense that this is anything but, an attempt to derail or slow-down the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 01:40 PM
 
4,817 posts, read 2,712,821 times
Reputation: 4314
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
This embarrassing smear campaign is being promoted by the democrats and conducted by the media. It would never get this far (with so little evidence that any misconduct, much less a crime ever took place decades ago) ... if the onslaught was not entirely politically motivated. It's hard to imagine how even the party-faithful cannot be disgusted by even the pretense that this is anything but, an attempt to derail or slow-down the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice.
The party is concerned because he is a 53 year old strict constitutionalist who would likely sit on the bench for 20+ years. Any parlor tricks employed now will be forgotten in 6 months, and ignored by their base anyway.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 01:41 PM
 
4,142 posts, read 1,693,141 times
Reputation: 13121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
This embarrassing smear campaign is being promoted by the democrats and conducted by the media. It would never get this far (with so little evidence that any misconduct, much less a crime ever took place decades ago) ... if the onslaught was not entirely politically motivated. It's hard to imagine how even the party-faithful cannot be disgusted by even the pretense that this is anything but, an attempt to derail or slow-down the nomination of a Supreme Court Justice.

The problem I have with it is that it is so nakedly partisan. I mean Ellison's girlfriend alleges that he battered her and evidently has medical records and videotaped evidence. Yet crickets. Go figure. If Kavanaugh is going to get publicly flogged like this, then so should Ellison.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
4,135 posts, read 3,266,877 times
Reputation: 3486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pogue Mahone View Post
These sorts of crimes are often he said/she said situations where it's hard to really prove if anything actually happened. Because of this they are notoriously difficult to prosecute, and guilty perpetrators are often set free. It's been said that it's better to let a thousand guilty people go free than let one innocent person be punished, but that leaves a lot of victims without justice in sex related crimes. Should the presumption of innocence apply to sex crimes, or in the interests of justice for victims should the onus be placed on the alleged perpetrator to prove their innocence?
The victims could start to be a little more proactive and accuse folks of rape, let's say....within the first decade. That would help. When victims don't report the crimes, people don't go to jail. That's half the problem with crime in inner cities here in America. Whether people are afraid due to intimidation, they don't want to snitch, or whatever excuse they can come up with to not report the crime... if it's not reported, it's not a crime. We need more education on how to report crimes, teach victims that it's the right thing to do, let them remain anonymous, and reform how victims can report crimes without feeling embarrassed. This would help.

As far as changing the legal system, I say nope. I say make it easier for victims to feel comfortable with coming forward without shame or fear...
 
Old 09-21-2018, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,965 posts, read 2,636,855 times
Reputation: 12947
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseManOnceSaid View Post
The victims could start to be a little more proactive and accuse folks of rape, let's say....within the first decade. That would help. When victims don't report the crimes, people don't go to jail. That's half the problem with crime in inner cities here in America. Whether people are afraid due to intimidation, they don't want to snitch, or whatever excuse they can come up with to not report the crime... if it's not reported, it's not a crime. We need more education on how to report crimes, teach victims that it's the right thing to do, let them remain anonymous, and reform how victims can report crimes without feeling embarrassed. This would help.

As far as changing the legal system, I say nope. I say make it easier for victims to feel comfortable with coming forward without shame or fear...
But that's just it, right? We make it easier for them to come forward by promising to believe them even when there is no evidence.
 
Old 09-21-2018, 07:38 PM
 
Location: U.S.A., Earth
4,370 posts, read 2,656,865 times
Reputation: 3824
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
An unfortunate side effect is it also undermines a lot of legitimate victims. The politicizing of sexual assault, like in the Kavanaugh confirmations, may well result in fewer legitimate victims being taken seriously. I see this potentially going down the same road as charges of racism. The threshold for something drawing accusations of racism is so low now the word literally means nothing anymore. I learned in 2012 that I was a racist for not supporting President Obama's reelection efforts (even though I supported Herman Cain in the primaries). With that kind of stupidity clouding the conversations, we can no longer have an adult level conversation about racism. That's a shame because it still exists and is a pretty serious problem that plagues mankind. At yet, it's been reduced to little more than an eye roll inducing punchline.
if you have reasons you didn't like Obama's policies and such, then that warrants an actual debate. Someone would need to verify that your only reason for not liking him is b/c he's black.

FWIW, it's suspected that some didn't like Obama simply because of the "black man in charge", let alone doing a good job syndrome.
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