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Old 09-24-2018, 06:26 PM
 
552 posts, read 166,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Kavanaugh was not elected to the Supreme Court. Essentially, he's in the process of a job interview.
Can't argue with your statement. But I was speaking to the double-standard of the Me-Too movement, where if your candidate is someone you like (the enabler Hillary, for instance), you're cut a whole lot of slack vs. someone you don't like. In this case, inconsistency equals hypocrisy, which hurts their cause. And, their cause should not be diminished. But It should also not be used as a political tool to damage an opponent.

 
Old 09-24-2018, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
988 posts, read 487,524 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
And if you count non-sexual forms of assault, how many of us (male and female) have been bullied on the playground, roughed up intentionally playing sports, etc.? All of us?
I had an "interesting" childhood and young adulthood, with broken bones, more than once, in fights and other incidents.

Never once crossed my mind to think of myself as a victim. I'm not proud, tough, or embarrassed either. Moved on.

How many people's parents left them by the side of the road when they acted out in the car? I mean, you could make a case about that too. "I woke up at night for the next thirty years, traumatized. I shivered. I was all alone by the side of the road." I mean, who knows how other people see their own lives. Everybody has had issues.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,063 posts, read 10,271,083 times
Reputation: 20103
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician View Post
I had an "interesting" childhood and young adulthood, with broken bones, more than once, in fights and other incidents.

Never once crossed my mind to think of myself as a victim. I'm not proud, tough, or embarrassed either. Moved on.

How many people's parents left them by the side of the road when they acted out in the car? I mean, you could make a case about that too. "I woke up at night for the next thirty years, traumatized. I shivered. I was all alone by the side of the road." I mean, who knows how other people see their own lives. Everybody has had issues.
Why are you excusing bad parents and bullies?
 
Old 09-24-2018, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Central IL
15,038 posts, read 8,396,222 times
Reputation: 35221
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician View Post
Two issues complicate the Kavanaugh thing for me.

1. The word rape is too broad a term, covers everything, and is desperately shoehorned onto minor cases where it just makes no sense. This dilutes the word and complicates the whole issue. An unwanted hand on a breast at an adolescent beer party, while not good, is not the same as hoodlums with guns abducting a woman out jogging, raping and beating her in a barn, and leaving her in a ditch. Nobody thinks about these acts in the same way. Nobody feels they should be punished in the same way. Yet the same word is used to describe them, or close. We need to have more nuance in how we describe the issue. I'm not at Cosby/Weinstein with Kavanaugh yet. Maybe I should be. I don't see evidence of this behavior in the last thirty years of his life. I don't see evidence of drugging people. I don't like what I hear, and I don't like Kavanaugh to begin with. But the nuance is lost here. There's an element of stick the worst buzzword you can find on somebody, and shiver in horror. I don't buy it.

2. Memory is fickle. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, even when the event is recent, and even when the eyewitness was sober. Not all eyewitnesses are wrong. Some get it right. But going thirty years back in the past, memories start to fade. I have writings from that long ago in my own life. Not everything I read in my diaries matches up to what I internalized in memory from those time periods. I find that my moods were sometimes different from what I remember, what I did, who I did it with, and so on. I'm not talking about huge discrepancies, but little things. I think everybody has had this experience in some way. We see an old picture. We forgot about one of the people in the picture. We're surprised. We're wearing a shirt we forgot about too. Without the picture, which is evidence, we wouldn't remember the little things. Credible testimony is built on little things. I believe Christine Ford in general. I have less faith in her ability to reliably describe the particulars of what happened.

In the end, we've made a choice. We could accept accusations uncritically. We would jail innocent people. Instead, we require proof. We can't prove everything. Guilty people get away. That a guilty person goes free invalidates the whole legal system to some people. An innocent person imprisoned, is worse in my view.
Both your premises are either wrong or inapplicable.
  1. Rape in the legal sense has a very specific definition. Even laypeople don't use rape to describe "groping" or a sexual overture, for example. Maybe you mean that on the continuum from mildly sexual verbal harassment to physically assaultive rape the punishment/consequences should not be the same? That, I agree with. But don't say people misuse the word rape - that is naive and insulting.
  2. Memory is indeed fickle. But most of these cases are between people who are at least acquainted with each other which greatly reduces any mistakes with identification compared to situations involving strangers. People who've been assaulted tend to remember things very vividly that are salient to the attack itself - but perhaps not things like the street address of the location or the exact date. That makes corroboration more difficult but not impossible. Instead, more than anything it is used to discount the person - it is more a case of laziness in the perceiver and the prosecutor in not finding other ways to corroborate the details of the case. Lots of other crimes have the same issues but somehow a lot more of those criminals end up behind bars - why? Because we don't immediate discount what they say and instead INVESTIGATE thoroughly.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 08:51 PM
 
63 posts, read 20,441 times
Reputation: 193
For the people that ask why don't people report when the incident happened, I found a good site called #WHYIDIDNTREPORT. it was an eye-opener for me.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
988 posts, read 487,524 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Why are you excusing bad parents and bullies?
Well, I could choose to be traumatized. It just isn't useful to me! Choice, I guess.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
22,063 posts, read 10,271,083 times
Reputation: 20103
Quote:
Originally Posted by unwillingphoenician View Post
Well, I could choose to be traumatized. It just isn't useful to me! Choice, I guess.
And that's good. But that doesn't excuse or result in consequences for those who bully or rape, etc.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
988 posts, read 487,524 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
Both your premises are either wrong or inapplicable.
  1. Rape in the legal sense has a very specific definition. Even laypeople don't use rape to describe "groping" or a sexual overture, for example. Maybe you mean that on the continuum from mildly sexual verbal harassment to physically assaultive rape the punishment/consequences should not be the same? That, I agree with. But don't say people misuse the word rape - that is naive and insulting.
  2. Memory is indeed fickle. But most of these cases are between people who are at least acquainted with each other which greatly reduces any mistakes with identification compared to situations involving strangers. People who've been assaulted tend to remember things very vividly that are salient to the attack itself - but perhaps not things like the street address of the location or the exact date. That makes corroboration more difficult but not impossible. Instead, more than anything it is used to discount the person - it is more a case of laziness in the perceiver and the prosecutor in not finding other ways to corroborate the details of the case. Lots of other crimes have the same issues but somehow a lot more of those criminals end up behind bars - why? Because we don't immediate discount what they say and instead INVESTIGATE thoroughly.
I've been assaulted. I don't have these vivid memories of which you speak. I thought I explained that well.

And if I use a credit card in my wife's name, even though it comes back to our joint account, that's technically fraud. Same legal definition as the $700 billion bank fraud of 2008. Please don't point out distinctions between the two types of fraud. It would be insulting and demeaning to me. Same clear distinction under the law. The word fraud fits. Give me a break.

The problem with exaggerating to make a point (Kavanaugh is Bill Cosby!) is you lose credibility. That's not a new idea, and not limited to politics. Strunk and White, still the de facto authority on clear English, point this out. Don't start an essay on invasive snakes in Florida with, "This is the most serious environmental problem ever." Because it isn't. And the reader, whether they tell you so or not, questions your judgment from that point on.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Phoenix
988 posts, read 487,524 times
Reputation: 1112
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And that's good. But that doesn't excuse or result in consequences for those who bully or rape, etc.
I'm not vengeful like that. There have been a few others in history. They've written books and such. Look them up.
 
Old 09-24-2018, 09:23 PM
 
Location: El paso,tx
1,995 posts, read 776,344 times
Reputation: 3153
I think its bs, in general.
Unless there is solid evidence, like it happened as a child and parents sought pschological help for child because of it, or complaint was filed to school, church, etc, or complaint was lodged when kid turned 18, i think that waiting years should nullify any complaint.
Women (and men) need to either file a complaint when it happened, so a rape test can be done and evidence gathered, or accept that they are letting their rapist off scott free and able to do it to someone else. If you are willing to let someobe else be victimized because of your lack of resolve to go to the authoritirs right away, then you don't deserve the right to expect to be believed later on.
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