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Old 01-12-2019, 10:10 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,616 posts, read 11,242,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
No, in the US there are the practicing Jewish communities, the Amish, the Mennonites, the Mormons, the Moonies (used to be, I haven't checked on them lately), & others, I'm sure. I've known people who mostly socialized within the boundaries of their church - where they tended to spend a lot of time - Bible study, Sunday school, worship, choir, various educational classes - some theological, some home economics, cooking, politics, economics, & so on. They put on church-wide programs for the major holidays - Christmas, Easter, commencement for graduates, & so on.


If you look, you can fill the day with activities - & that's not even considering the mega-churches, which apparently have worship, activities, conferences, classes, interest groups that run the entire gamut, practically 24/7/365.


In the British colonies & then the US, the Native Peoples were teachers & mentors (on what to plant, how, when, when to harvest, how to process/cook). Then partners in trade - but on the East coast, the settlers eventually wanted the land (or crops, or access to water, or wildlife). The Native Peoples were pushed west, until they occupied land of no interest to the states (which interests varied - see uranium, copper, silver, gold, lead, asbestos, coal, etc.)


There are historical reasons for the status of the tribes in the US, versus the status of tribes in Mexico & other parts of Latin America. It's worthwhile to read the history, & see why & how the current situations developed.

People like the Amish, Mennonites etc are self segregated. And said separation is religious, not racial in nature. They weren't put on reservations at the tip of a saber and a Colt SAA. There was no "war" that resulted in them living as they do. Manifest Destiny did not dictate their status at any point. Oh I have read the history of the Indian Wars. Generals like Sherman, Crook, Miles and their ilk. Custer wasn't a general He was a light bird. The Western wars have garnered most peoples view of what the "Indian Wars" were. Indian leaders like Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Black Elk, Chief Joseph, Geronimo, Vitorio, Cochise and such. Earlier conflicts such as the Creek wars, Seminole wars, Black Hawk War and conflicts with the Cherokee, Iroquois, Mohawk etc are not known as well. These being the French and Indian wars before this was the US of course. Sheesh today it's hard to find folks who even have an interest in any history let alone the Indian conflicts.


One general that comes to mind for me is Fetterman. What a moron. The Sioux taught him better. He was more of an arrogant idiot than Custer but not as well known. Try and find an average citizen especially a young one who know about Sand Creek or even Wounded Knee. Using the Amish and such as examples of forced segregation in comparison to the Indians? Sorry that dog won't hunt. There was never the bitter burning hatred between them and US society that existed between the Indians and the people of the US. The current situation and how it developed I have a pretty decent knowledge of and I lived butted right up against a huge rez most of my life. I have a few Indian buddies but for the most part my Whiteness precludes in general good relations. Especially on the rez.


Local history here regarding Indian relations is far from glowing. A "punative" expedition" against the Pyramid Lake Paiute tribe which was made up mostly of whiskey fueled idiots from Virginia city met with a sticky end. The Paiutes had taken back a kidnapped girl from a trading post in Lahonton Valley and this was inflated into an "uprising." The "militia" got spanked however the Army came in the end and thus it went.


I have a studied take on why things are as they are now and how they got that way. I haven't assimilated what I know from old Hollywood Western movies. Might be fun to compare notes with you methinks. I admit to intrigue.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:25 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
3,637 posts, read 1,532,807 times
Reputation: 3271
Default Condemned to repeat it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
People like the Amish, Mennonites etc are self segregated. And said separation is religious, not racial in nature. They weren't put on reservations at the tip of a saber and a Colt SAA. There was no "war" that resulted in them living as they do. Manifest Destiny did not dictate their status at any point. Oh I have read the history of the Indian Wars. Generals like Sherman, Crook, Miles and their ilk. Custer wasn't a general He was a light bird. The Western wars have garnered most peoples view of what the "Indian Wars" were. Indian leaders like Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Black Elk, Chief Joseph, Geronimo, Vitorio, Cochise and such. Earlier conflicts such as the Creek wars, Seminole wars, Black Hawk War and conflicts with the Cherokee, Iroquois, Mohawk etc are not known as well. These being the French and Indian wars before this was the US of course. Sheesh today it's hard to find folks who even have an interest in any history let alone the Indian conflicts.

No, I wasn't equating the Amish & etc. to how the Native Peoples were treated in the American British colonies & then the US - it was more to the point of their integration into what became the majority culture. Like the practicing Jewish communities, Amish, etc. - the Native Peoples weren't interested in becoming European - they liked guns & steel well enough, but they didn't (TMK) want to become European & abandon their own cultures.


The Jewish communities in the US are a special case - they have often assimilated & compete very well - possibly too well - with their European-descended countrymen. But as Judaism persists, I don't think they're interested in totally assimilating to the surrounding civilization either (even though statistically, religious Judaism is in real danger of disappearing in the US in a few generations). & Judaism has long been persecuted in the West - practically since Christianity came to power.


& you're right, history doesn't seem to be a priority in the US, @ least. A pity, we could @ least make new mistakes, rather than repeat old ones. But it is what it is.
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Old 01-12-2019, 10:53 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,616 posts, read 11,242,376 times
Reputation: 12645
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
No, I wasn't equating the Amish & etc. to how the Native Peoples were treated in the American British colonies & then the US - it was more to the point of their integration into what became the majority culture. Like the practicing Jewish communities, Amish, etc. - the Native Peoples weren't interested in becoming European - they liked guns & steel well enough, but they didn't (TMK) want to become European & abandon their own cultures.


The Jewish communities in the US are a special case - they have often assimilated & compete very well - possibly too well - with their European-descended countrymen. But as Judaism persists, I don't think they're interested in totally assimilating to the surrounding civilization either (even though statistically, religious Judaism is in real danger of disappearing in the US in a few generations). & Judaism has long been persecuted in the West - practically since Christianity came to power.


& you're right, history doesn't seem to be a priority in the US, @ least. A pity, we could @ least make new mistakes, rather than repeat old ones. But it is what it is.

Indeed we have and are repeating so many mistakes in total disregard to the adage that "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." From a completely objective viewpoint the Indians were foolish in taking on the US Army. It was a doomed venture from the start. Sitting Bull tried to unite the tribes and actually did so at Little Big Horn. But despite its famous place in history this was really an inconsequential battle.


Sitting Bull even had tribes that were hereditary enemies of the Sioux like the Crow, Arapahoe, and even the Pawnee on board at LBH. The US Army only lost 200 some odd men there and The war Chiefs like Crazy Horse et al were leading their entire force. In the end it was a pinprick and served to incite the US citizenry and the Army to support Indian eradication. The Indians would not listen to Sitting Bull and Red Cloud that they needed to remain united. They did not think in terms of a campaign war. It was an alien concept. To them a battle like LBH WAS a war.


They thought that such a defeat as they handed Yellow Hair would stop the Whites from coming. Not so much. If they had listened to Sitting Bull and did remain united the war would have been longer but they would still have been defeated in the end. Thus it was...
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
20,263 posts, read 9,561,386 times
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Americans (along with many other people) have a tendency to want to pat themselves on the back and tell themselves how wonderful they are. They will take good accomplishments here and there and then paint that with broad brush strokes as being the way things are in general.

The promise of America is unfulfilled for millions of people. There is nothing we can do that will erase the disgraceful actions that took place in American history in regard to slavery and the near elimination of the American Indians. What was done was horrific and in many ways comparable to what was done in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s.

Progress is not the same as "mission accomplished". As NVPlumber points out, the condition under which American Indians live in our nation of plenty is a disgrace. The poverty of many urban centers in what we like to believe is the richest nation in the world is tragic.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:44 AM
 
4,183 posts, read 2,305,316 times
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I would suggest that race is a much less imrtant distinction than cultural integration.

Race can be used as an identifier of culture but it’s not the benchmark. We have areas that have a great deal of racial integration but not cultural and vice versa.

Miami is one good example as is Atlanta on the opposite end of the spectrum.
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Old 02-02-2019, 03:18 PM
 
45,375 posts, read 44,150,142 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWFL_Native View Post
I would suggest that race is a much less imrtant distinction than cultural integration.

Race can be used as an identifier of culture but it’s not the benchmark. We have areas that have a great deal of racial integration but not cultural and vice versa.

Miami is one good example as is Atlanta on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Being integrated culturally can make things easier. However, when it comes to what you look like, race is often used as an identifier. It might not be the biggest benchmark, but it is used as a benchmark in several cases. Racial integration has been taking place, but it hasn't been without its struggles. Some people don't want to be around people of a different race. Some people don't want to be around a certain race. In some cases, this can also cause cultural issues.

One thing I want to end with is this. In many cases, racial integration is more helpful to cultural integration than the other way around.
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Old 02-02-2019, 04:02 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 920,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Since this is "Great Debates", if you're going to assert that, then I feel you should the empirical evidence that you claim. Don't just mention "modern science", show us.

When I Googled "are children born prejudiced", what I mostly found were articles saying that children learn prejudice easily and quickly. I didn't find a lot of support for being born prejudiced.

Now if you want to say that it is natural for humans to classify things...including people...then I'll agree with that. Classification is something humans do, but classifying things does not indicate prejudice.
Well its hardly settled science, but there is at least some evidence toward racial bias in infants.

"Infants show racial bias toward members of own race and against those of other races"
https://phys.org/news/2017-04-infant...s-members.html

I suspect that the human mind is:
1) Group oriented- we like to form groups and show favoritism toward our group.
2) Pattern oriented- as you say we like to classify/generalize people. Although there are not scientifically discrete races, there are obviously visual differences across population groups.

When combined together these do probably work to create some natural basis for "racism."

That being said, its not like we should just accept racism as the natural order of things. There was nothing natural about Jim Crow or segregation. Society plays a huge role in shaping how groups are determined. People off different "races" can form groups that overwhelm any natural tendency to group people by visual differences.
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Old 02-03-2019, 06:21 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,692 posts, read 20,786,404 times
Reputation: 9223
USA is a mixed bag for integration success. Asians and most Muslim / or South Asian immigrants do very well, in fact having a higher medium income than Whites. Hispanics and Sub Saharan African immigrants are towards the White average, depends somewhat on country of origin. But the overwhelming evidence is that African Americans and Native Americans are way behind everyone else and little progress has been made.
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Old 02-04-2019, 09:51 AM
 
Location: NY in body, Mayberry in spirit.
2,648 posts, read 1,702,451 times
Reputation: 6211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
As already pointed out this is simply not true.

This is not true as well. America wasn't the first society to have an integrated country and America is still largely self-segregated along racial, cultural, religious, political, and social class lines.

America is far too young of a country to claim it was the "first at society integration."

America is good at being rich and attracting immigrants from all over the world (especially with birthright citizenship and tourist visas) but once you get here you learn very quickly that society is far from integrated.
Your comment about self segregation is well taken. The saying goes, ‘like stays with like’. People tend to congregate with others who look, act, believe just as they do.

Some years ago I was involved in a travel team football league. In off field activities, time and again you would see black players socializing with other black players, and whites doing the same. It is just in our nature.

In high school, we had bus passes to take public transportation. I was always struck by the irony that just 20 yrs after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the black students always sat in the back of the bus. They, in fact, would get very territorial about wanting to be there.

Our country will never be truly integrated because many people don’t want to be, simple as that.
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:46 AM
 
45,375 posts, read 44,150,142 times
Reputation: 14653
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYJoe View Post
Your comment about self segregation is well taken. The saying goes, ‘like stays with like’. People tend to congregate with others who look, act, believe just as they do.

Some years ago I was involved in a travel team football league. In off field activities, time and again you would see black players socializing with other black players, and whites doing the same. It is just in our nature.

In high school, we had bus passes to take public transportation. I was always struck by the irony that just 20 yrs after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the black students always sat in the back of the bus. They, in fact, would get very territorial about wanting to be there.

Our country will never be truly integrated because many people don’t want to be, simple as that.
I'm one of those persons who isn't about that "like stays with like" mentality. I've always been someone who would try and integrate. I want a truly integrated society, or at the least, a society that is more inclusive and accepting. I will admit that I do have a problem with the way many things are in society.

As for the bus, I take public transportation myself alot. I try to avoid sitting in the back of the bus.
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