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Old 10-19-2018, 03:36 PM
Status: "People and tear gas - either it's a border or it isn't." (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
13,653 posts, read 5,377,037 times
Reputation: 10914

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I am currently reading Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation by Joseph J. Ellis. The book concerns the Revolutionary and early national era, focusing on Ben Franklin, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and others. Much of the book is still relevant. Among the many good points he makes is that the world, up until that time, had never really known a bi-racial (or multi-racial) society. Many people were advocating emancipation of the slaves. One of the reasons that was never seriously considered by Congress was that no would could comprehend a society where the races were mixed.

The United States was the first such society and I would argue still is the only truly integrated country. It is messy, but it works. The "Great Debate" topic is whether the difficulties in creating such a society engender many of the modern-day tensions over race, immigration and social benefits. The discussion on the latter is playing out in various threads, including Why Many "Conservatives" or Republicans Often Oppose Welfare. I believe we do a pretty good job of integrating, and shouldn't breast-beat ourselves that we're not perfect.


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Old 10-19-2018, 04:03 PM
Status: "Independent/free" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Land of the Caddo and Tonkawa
4,031 posts, read 1,571,743 times
Reputation: 5765
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I am currently reading Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation by Joseph J. Ellis. The book concerns the Revolutionary and early national era, focusing on Ben Franklin, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and others. ....Among the many good points he makes is that the world, up until that time, had never really known a bi-racial (or multi-racial) society. ...One of the reasons that was never seriously considered by Congress was that no would could comprehend a society where the races were mixed.
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That's complete nonsense and lies. There were already slaves/blacks mixed in with society even in Benjamin Franklin's early years - circa 1730's/'40s (he sold some of his own slaves through his newspaper). Washington and Jefferson also had slaves.

The Founding Fathers were intimately familiar with a bi-racial society, as it was happening in their very own homes/farms/mansions. And it would have been common around them, even in the north in those formlative years.

On top of that, Indians were still heavily present, making deals and having frequent communications with whites. It wouldn't be until much later (1830s-1870s) that the Indians would be pushed far away or wiped out.

So the Founding Fathers were surrounded by a tri-racial society at the very minimum.

That book - if truly claiming what is mentioned in the original post - would be completely false. It would be revisionist garbage to somehow make them look blind or innocent, and excuse their views and mixed signals.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 10-19-2018 at 04:48 PM..
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
5,052 posts, read 1,297,558 times
Reputation: 7209
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
. Among the many good points he makes is that the world, up until that time, had never really known a bi-racial (or multi-racial) society.
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As already pointed out this is simply not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The United States was the first such society and I would argue still is the only truly integrated country.
This is not true as well. America wasn't the first society to have an integrated country and America is still largely self-segregated along racial, cultural, religious, political, and social class lines.

America is far too young of a country to claim it was the "first at society integration."

America is good at being rich and attracting immigrants from all over the world (especially with birthright citizenship and tourist visas) but once you get here you learn very quickly that society is far from integrated.

Last edited by Rocko20; 10-19-2018 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
Status: "Independent/free" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: Land of the Caddo and Tonkawa
4,031 posts, read 1,571,743 times
Reputation: 5765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
... America wasn't the first society to have an integrated country
Absolutely true. I was going to point that out as well.

Anyone with any grasp of world history knows how common multiracial societies have been; around the world, over the centuries.
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Old 10-19-2018, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Florida -
8,367 posts, read 10,154,701 times
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Advancing global communications and higher speed transportation have done more to advance the "racial integration experiment" than anything done by the American government.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:02 PM
Status: "People and tear gas - either it's a border or it isn't." (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
13,653 posts, read 5,377,037 times
Reputation: 10914
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
Advancing global communications and higher speed transportation have done more to advance the "racial integration experiment" than anything done by the American government.
My OP said nothing about the government.I'm going to wait to calm down before addressing the posts.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:59 PM
 
Location: DC metropolitan area
581 posts, read 198,514 times
Reputation: 638
(1) On the Horn of Africa, the Amhara, Somali and others are a hybridized people -- East African and Middle Eastern.

(2) On Madagascar, the Malagasy are in the process of hybridization (on-going for centuries) -- East African and Polynesian.

(3) Paraguay is a hybrid nation -- Guarani and Iberian.

(4) On Great Britain, the Brits are a hybridized people -- Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Celts, Latins (Roman and Norman French).

(5) Ashkenazi Jews are a hybrid people -- European and Middle Eastern.

(6) Cape Verdeans are a hybrid people -- 40-60% African (mostly Senegalese) and 40-60% European (primarily Portuguese).
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:14 PM
 
Location: DC metropolitan area
581 posts, read 198,514 times
Reputation: 638
When I lived in Puerto Rico, Puerto Ricans would frequently make fun of Americans who would say they are mixed as in Irish, German, and English... or Italian and French, etc. They would point out that nearly all Puerto Ricans are a mix of Spanish, African and Taino.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,383 posts, read 9,131,106 times
Reputation: 18700
Thailand may not be diverse in terms of race, but it is very diverse in terms of religion (Buddhists and Muslims) and culture (the Thais in the northeast are more Lao in culture, in the southeast more Cambodian in culture, in the north more Burmese in culture, in the central valley more ethnic Thai, and in the south more Malay in culture. I have Thai friends who cannot understand the language used in parts of their own country.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:34 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
1,839 posts, read 683,946 times
Reputation: 3722
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post

The United States was the first such society and I would argue still is the only truly integrated country.

I had to laugh when I read that. Having diverse colonies living in juxtaposition to each other doesn't make the country "integrated." The US may still be the MOST segregated country. (Granted, my opinion may be determined by my full familiarity only with things in Chicago.)


Even in places like Puerto Rico or Brazil where intermarriage between people of European and African origins has been going on freely for centuries, there is still a strong element of differential treatment based on shades of skin color.


It's my opinion (maybe based more on fantasy than solid deductive reasoning) that those in this country who think they are being discriminated against on the basis of race should look to the Jews who seem to have done a remarkable job thru the centuries at adapting to the ways of the dominant cultures into which they've spread, yet managing to maintain their separate identity.


To the question of "most integrated," the population of Imperial Rome is easily #1. "All roads lead to Rome." That always made me wonder if it was possible to get lost in those days? No wonder they never invented the GPS. They didn't need it.
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