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Old 11-02-2018, 03:01 PM
 
Location: 'greater' Buffalo, NY
2,834 posts, read 1,906,645 times
Reputation: 3647

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Golden Rule View Post
YIn the 60s and 70s, the Nazi Party held rallies and parades in downtown Chicago. We didn't agree with anything the party stood for, but we didn't get irate and offended. We just chose not to attend.
I'm not entirely certain that was the better state of affairs.
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:16 PM
 
3,706 posts, read 3,033,154 times
Reputation: 10030
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
NO. Freedom of speech is fully intact. NOTHING is being undermined. Everyone has the right to say anything they want. Is that not true?

Those speaking DO NOT have the right to control the reaction of those hearing.

How can you disagree with this?

Again, as Trump supporter, would you hire an anti-Trump lawn guy who wants to mow your grass in a "Dump Trump" t-shirt . His FOS is fully intact when you fire him.
Actually I can't stand Trump, but, I occasionally drink a beer or two with a guy who thinks Trump walks on water and awaits Trump's every bellicose outburst with gleeful anticipation. We get along despite this divide of opinion and I suspect many others feel the same way. I fail to see the "control" reference as an adjunct to our right of free speech, instead, I see a lot of people who are attempting to silence others in the name of a very individualistic sense of decency. Not unlike the treatment received by the likes of Lenny Bruce and others who were"offending" so many in the nineteen fifties uptight America.

I'm far more concerned about the actions of those in the public eye, such as the pols who routinely lie to, and cheat their constituency, the police who beat up citizens in the name of law and order, teachers who fail to do a satisfactory job and skate by into retirement, the list could be a lot longer and I'm sure you can add some to it on your own. My point is that we are becoming a nation of fools, fools who think they can enforce their own brand of everything, including politics, religion, and-- their smug self righteous moral edicts. Enough of the nonsense, lets at least try to agree that we have much bigger fish to fry, and get on with that.

I think this guy is saying all of the above, but greatly condensed:

Most people do not really want others to have freedom of speech, they just want others to be given the freedom to say want they want to hear.
― Mokokoma Mokhonoana
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Old 11-02-2018, 03:59 PM
 
5,072 posts, read 610,795 times
Reputation: 13147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
I'm not entirely certain that was the better state of affairs.
As Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Old 11-02-2018, 05:08 PM
 
9,315 posts, read 7,324,406 times
Reputation: 22802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
I'd try to educate him.

Megyn Kelley got fired because it isn't allowed to point out that at one time, blackface was acceptable. The line is that blackface was always unacceptable and only racists and the ignorant did it or weren't offended by it.

Well, I was there. And I can say that in polite society blackface was acceptable. And not only on Halloween. Maybe blacks found it offensive but equally as likely, they weren't instructed to find it offensive yet and so didn't.

And a couple of decades earlier, "White Only" was socially acceptable. It was the way of life in the South and few in the North thought much about it one way or the other.

Why weren't Jimmies Kimmel and Fallon fired? They actually wore blackface and wore it after it had crossed the line of social acceptability.

My own opinion is that NBC lured MK away from Fox because they didn't want a smart, attractive (beautiful, actually), conservative woman having a successful TV show. They put her in situations they knew wouldn't work, biding their time and knowing eventually they'd have a pseudo excuse send her to Siberia.

The one they got was close enough. For them.
1. Really? How would you "educate" the $35 lawn guy. Who has time?
2. Black people were offended by blackface when it was commonly happening. To think otherwise is delusional.
3. Gee, a conspiracy theory about Megan Kelly. *sigh* Did NBC make Megan Kelly say the things she did?
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:30 PM
 
57 posts, read 13,682 times
Reputation: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not sure you realize how your post comes across.

Should a person come to work for me that feels that during the work time for which I am paying him that he has to espouse a political view that I find abhorrent...I'd do my best to find a different worker for the next time around. In a 33 year career in education, I never mixed my political view with my career.

I think people ought to get their panties in a twist for causes such as Nazism. And the KKK. Etc. To say nothing is to condone.

I hope you don't think that it's just liberals who are basing friendships on politics.

You think that constant insulting of others is a good thing?
I'm not so sensitive or egocentric as to believe that I can only communicate or do business with people who believe exactly as I do. If the lawn guy does a good job, I don't feel it's worth fighting with him over his political beliefs. What do I do? Look in the Republican Yellow Pages? That's a ridiculous and unrealistic expectation.

Good for you that you never discussed anything political in 33 years. That's unusual, if not unbelievable. I worked in corporate America for 30 years. On many occasions, co-workers and I had discussions in the break room or at lunch about many topics, especially at election time. Everyone knew where each other stood in terms of political views. There was never any arguing, any threat from management to not discuss the topic. Interestingly, formal religious studies (like Bible studies) were prohibited within the last 10 years I worked.

You cannot draw the line and say, well free speech is okay EXCEPT for people who believe this or that. Free speech means all speech is protected, not just the things you don't find abhorrent. Nazis and KKK are entitled to believe what they want, say what they want, as long it doesn't involve threats. We don't have to like it. But we have to allow it. Or we risk losing our own right when someone else decides what we're saying is offensive.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I think there are people of all beliefs, conservative and liberal alike, who are intolerant of opposing views. I'm a constitutionalist, so I believe you have the right to say whatever you want. It doesn't mean I'm going to like you, agree with you, or, if I so desire, to do business with you. I'd never go work for Facebook, or Google, or some other firms because I know the corporate culture is blatantly liberal and they are working actively to undermine opposing views. It wasn't like that during my career.

Insults happen. Toughen up.
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,973 posts, read 8,906,249 times
Reputation: 18342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That a few entertainers who were directly assisted by him gave him credit does not speak of "acceptance by the black community."
How dare a white person have an opinion on this topic. Right?
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Old 11-02-2018, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,973 posts, read 8,906,249 times
Reputation: 18342
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Golden Rule View Post
I'm not so sensitive or egocentric as to believe that I can only communicate or do business with people who believe exactly as I do. If the lawn guy does a good job, I don't feel it's worth fighting with him over his political beliefs. What do I do? Look in the Republican Yellow Pages? That's a ridiculous and unrealistic expectation.

Good for you that you never discussed anything political in 33 years. That's unusual, if not unbelievable. I worked in corporate America for 30 years. On many occasions, co-workers and I had discussions in the break room or at lunch about many topics, especially at election time. Everyone knew where each other stood in terms of political views. There was never any arguing, any threat from management to not discuss the topic. Interestingly, formal religious studies (like Bible studies) were prohibited within the last 10 years I worked.

You cannot draw the line and say, well free speech is okay EXCEPT for people who believe this or that. Free speech means all speech is protected, not just the things you don't find abhorrent. Nazis and KKK are entitled to believe what they want, say what they want, as long it doesn't involve threats. We don't have to like it. But we have to allow it. Or we risk losing our own right when someone else decides what we're saying is offensive.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I think there are people of all beliefs, conservative and liberal alike, who are intolerant of opposing views. I'm a constitutionalist, so I believe you have the right to say whatever you want. It doesn't mean I'm going to like you, agree with you, or, if I so desire, to do business with you. I'd never go work for Facebook, or Google, or some other firms because I know the corporate culture is blatantly liberal and they are working actively to undermine opposing views. It wasn't like that during my career.

Insults happen. Toughen up.
I've noticed that you sometimes like to twist someone's words to win the discussion.

When someone is working for someone else in a non-political position...then they ought to keep politics out of it. For 33 years, no client of mine was ever treated to my political opinion in a work situation. Now if we went out for a drink or dinner or socializing at their home...that was different. And Mr. Republican...I notice how often people in your party like to criticize educators -- particularly at the college level -- for "indoctrinating" the youth. You can't have it both ways.

I never said I never discussed anything political in 33 years. DID I? On a break to a colleague who might start the discussion...yes...out of the place of business...yes. But I wasn't being paid to discuss politics. So around clients...which was most of the time...I didn't...even thought I enjoyed discussing politics.

This discussion had NOTHING to do with free speech in the example given about hiring someone for a job. It had to do with what's appropriate in the work place. That's a specious argument. It's very much like when I'd have to decide whether a particular book belonged in a middle school library. I was pretty liberal about it, but occasionally I would say no...not that book...not in a middle school. It had nothing to do with free speech. It had everything to do with age appropriateness, just like in this discussion where it has to do with appropriate discussions around clients.
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Old 11-02-2018, 08:59 PM
 
17,980 posts, read 9,869,523 times
Reputation: 17476
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
How dare a white person have an opinion on this topic. Right?
Depends on whether it's a knowledgeable opinion.

If I had just read a couple of recent articles by Americans of how the Chinese felt about Jiang Qing's role in the Cultural Revolution, I wouldn't claim knowledge superior to a Chinese who had lived through it.
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,973 posts, read 8,906,249 times
Reputation: 18342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Depends on whether it's a knowledgeable opinion.

If I had just read a couple of recent articles by Americans of how the Chinese felt about Jiang Qing's role in the Cultural Revolution, I wouldn't claim knowledge superior to a Chinese who had lived through it.
Sorry. I wasn't aware that you were an expert on Al Jolson.
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:20 PM
 
17,980 posts, read 9,869,523 times
Reputation: 17476
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Sorry. I wasn't aware that you were an expert on Al Jolson.
I see your hands there on the goalpost.

The discussion has been about the opinion of the black community about Al Jolson.
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