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Old 11-02-2018, 09:31 PM
 
57 posts, read 14,521 times
Reputation: 283

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I've noticed that you sometimes like to twist someone's words to win the discussion.

When someone is working for someone else in a non-political position...then they ought to keep politics out of it. For 33 years, no client of mine was ever treated to my political opinion in a work situation. Now if we went out for a drink or dinner or socializing at their home...that was different. And Mr. Republican...I notice how often people in your party like to criticize educators -- particularly at the college level -- for "indoctrinating" the youth. You can't have it both ways.

I never said I never discussed anything political in 33 years. DID I? On a break to a colleague who might start the discussion...yes...out of the place of business...yes. But I wasn't being paid to discuss politics. So around clients...which was most of the time...I didn't...even thought I enjoyed discussing politics.

This discussion had NOTHING to do with free speech in the example given about hiring someone for a job. It had to do with what's appropriate in the work place. That's a specious argument. It's very much like when I'd have to decide whether a particular book belonged in a middle school library. I was pretty liberal about it, but occasionally I would say no...not that book...not in a middle school. It had nothing to do with free speech. It had everything to do with age appropriateness, just like in this discussion where it has to do with appropriate discussions around clients.
I apologize. I did not intentionally twist your words; it's how I read them. I thought back to my own experience and it was not the same as yours, so I'm sorry. I totally agree that in certain work situations, it is inappropriate to discuss politics. You said you kept politics strictly out of your workplace for 33 years. In my situation, it was not the case. I worked in corporate America for decades but did not have clients, per se. I was an employee and my fellow employees and I frequently talked about politics in the workplace. If I had been a doctor or a lawyer or a sales rep or a teacher, I agree that it would be inappropriate to discuss politics with patients/clients/customers/students, perhaps even damaging to my career. But my peers and I did discuss politics, religion, what car we want to buy, where you could get a decent steak...you get the idea. It was just another topic. We could agree to disagree without feeling like our relationship might be damaged or our cars keyed, etc. The hundreds of people I've been acquainted with over the years have had similar experiences. It is a different world now and unless I have a close relationship/friendship with someone, I'd shy away from anything but the most vanilla topics. I am sorry you think I'm trying to accuse you of untruth. I'm not. It seems your work experience was merely far different from mine and my peers. I believe you were wise in your behavior. If only that were the case these days in academia.

As for the lawn guy...give me a break. It's not like I'm hiring him to run my company. He's mowing my grass. I don't interview lawn people about their political preferences. I have no idea what political preferences the guy who rebuilt my deck this summer has, nor the guy who runs the car wash I frequent. It's not a requirement that every person I do business with shares my political views, religious beliefs, or dietary habits. If they're wearing an Impeach Trump shirt, I just shake my head and move on.

And I'm not necessarily a Republican, so it's not my "party." It happens to be the party of the guy I voted for in 2016., but I'm a conservative and a constitutionalist. And that's Ms. Constitutionalist to you. And criticizing me for what people in my "party" say is ridiculous. I speak for myself. I don't agree with everything that any politician says, even the ones I've voted for. Do you? Do you have a perfect Democratic candidate that represents everything you believe and has the moral standards you do? Please, I want to hear who it is. I wouldn't even pretend that any politician of any party does that for me.
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Old 11-02-2018, 09:43 PM
 
57 posts, read 14,521 times
Reputation: 283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
I'm not entirely certain that was the better state of affairs.
The point is that even when the Nazi Party held their rallies, nobody got injured. We didn't get all upset. We understood that the First Amendment protected everyone's point of view, even the vilest. We let them do their thing, ignored them, and they went home. We voted appropriately--not for the Nazi Party.

When we arbitrarily decide some voices aren't worthy of free speech, we place ourselves in danger of having the same fate when someone else decides our speech is hateful or racist or ....whatever offense they come up with.

It's dangerous to cherry-pick those who are to have the right to free speech. Unfortunately, we've already headed down that slippery slope. Look out when we reach the bottom.
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,995 posts, read 8,914,315 times
Reputation: 18346
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Golden Rule View Post
I apologize. I did not intentionally twist your words; it's how I read them. I thought back to my own experience and it was not the same as yours, so I'm sorry. I totally agree that in certain work situations, it is inappropriate to discuss politics. You said you kept politics strictly out of your workplace for 33 years. In my situation, it was not the case. I worked in corporate America for decades but did not have clients, per se. I was an employee and my fellow employees and I frequently talked about politics in the workplace. If I had been a doctor or a lawyer or a sales rep or a teacher, I agree that it would be inappropriate to discuss politics with patients/clients/customers/students, perhaps even damaging to my career. But my peers and I did discuss politics, religion, what car we want to buy, where you could get a decent steak...you get the idea. It was just another topic. We could agree to disagree without feeling like our relationship might be damaged or our cars keyed, etc. The hundreds of people I've been acquainted with over the years have had similar experiences. It is a different world now and unless I have a close relationship/friendship with someone, I'd shy away from anything but the most vanilla topics. I am sorry you think I'm trying to accuse you of untruth. I'm not. It seems your work experience was merely far different from mine and my peers. I believe you were wise in your behavior. If only that were the case these days in academia.

As for the lawn guy...give me a break. It's not like I'm hiring him to run my company. He's mowing my grass. I don't interview lawn people about their political preferences. I have no idea what political preferences the guy who rebuilt my deck this summer has, nor the guy who runs the car wash I frequent. It's not a requirement that every person I do business with shares my political views, religious beliefs, or dietary habits. If they're wearing an Impeach Trump shirt, I just shake my head and move on.

And I'm not necessarily a Republican, so it's not my "party." It happens to be the party of the guy I voted for in 2016., but I'm a conservative and a constitutionalist. And that's Ms. Constitutionalist to you. And criticizing me for what people in my "party" say is ridiculous. I speak for myself. I don't agree with everything that any politician says, even the ones I've voted for. Do you? Do you have a perfect Democratic candidate that represents everything you believe and has the moral standards you do? Please, I want to hear who it is. I wouldn't even pretend that any politician of any party does that for me.
Well, at least I like the main paragraph of this post better.

Part of the issue here...in my opinion...is (and I think you mention this) the times have changed. I'm retired now, so no longer in the work place. But I belong to a group who plays cards and dominoes every Tuesday at a deli, and it's a surprisingly wide variety of people with ages from 17 to 70+. There are a couple of issues that can cause discord in the group; most of those issues have to do with rules or "set up". But every once in a while, someone will decide to pontificate about the Orange One, and once that starts, people start moving to a new table or even leave (same for Hillary 2 years ago). Or they're told to shut the ---- up. I'm 69 years old...started out as a Republican, then evolved to be a Democrat. It didn't matter who the president was...I could find something to respect about them. Even Nixon (in fact, he was the first presidential candidate I voted for). But not now. I no longer talk to people about politics unless I know they're on the same side of things as me, because too many conversations have gone down the toilet in the last 2 years because of that topic. I simply refuse to talk politics with Trump supporters, and I refuse to get drawn into discussions with them (of course, it's a little different on this forum, although I now stay way away from the politics and other controversies subforum). And no, I will not hire any person who openly advocates for Trump while they're working, or patronize such a business if I can possibly avoid it. My doctors don't do it. My dentist doesn't do it. My barber doesn't do it. And any worker who thinks it's a good idea to mix their politics with their job (whether they be Democrat or Republican) -- particularly if they're an individual who is an independent worker -- is too stupid for me to hire. I'm not paying for propaganda. I'm paying for having the lawn work done or a handyman (or whatever).
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,995 posts, read 8,914,315 times
Reputation: 18346
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Golden Rule View Post
The point is that even when the Nazi Party held their rallies, nobody got injured. We didn't get all upset. We understood that the First Amendment protected everyone's point of view, even the vilest. We let them do their thing, ignored them, and they went home. We voted appropriately--not for the Nazi Party.

When we arbitrarily decide some voices aren't worthy of free speech, we place ourselves in danger of having the same fate when someone else decides our speech is hateful or racist or ....whatever offense they come up with.

It's dangerous to cherry-pick those who are to have the right to free speech. Unfortunately, we've already headed down that slippery slope. Look out when we reach the bottom.
Actually, that's not quite true. There was sometimes violence during German Bund events, and about only reason there wasn't violence at KKK events was pure fear.
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Old 11-03-2018, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Texas
6,597 posts, read 2,396,848 times
Reputation: 14141
Megan Kelly should have never made that comment. She should have exited the conversation if possible. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:03 AM
 
3,764 posts, read 1,680,314 times
Reputation: 5151
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
1. Really? How would you "educate" the $35 lawn guy. Who has time?
2. Black people were offended by blackface when it was commonly happening. To think otherwise is delusional.
3. Gee, a conspiracy theory about Megan Kelly. *sigh* Did NBC make Megan Kelly say the things she did?
I'd start by explaining to him why $35/hr is too much. After we got that settled, we could attack the more difficult material.

Black people may have been offended, I don't know. In Megyn Kelley's neighborhood, there are no black people. Even to this day. Bethlehem is a lily white progressive suburb. A few token residents but no more than that. So, she was right saying blackface was acceptable when she was growing up. I would be surprised if she knew any black people before she started Albany Law.

NBC is a hard-nosed, competitive, ideological media company. Like Fox. Cut-throat is the name of the game. Poking a rival in the eye is SOP.

MK was an obvious misfit at NBC. She didn't toe their line. I can't imagine how much her co-workers loathed her: an enemy right in their midst. And a smart and erudite one. Better looking than any of them to boot. No way was she brought in to stay.

Last edited by Troyfan; 11-03-2018 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:44 AM
 
18,004 posts, read 9,883,430 times
Reputation: 17494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Black people may have been offended, I don't know. In Megyn Kelley's neighborhood, there are no black people. Even to this day. Bethlehem is a lily white progressive suburb. A few token residents but no more than that. So, she was right saying blackface was acceptable when she was growing up. I would be surprised if she knew any black people before she started Albany Law.
She was stupid in saying it as she did, saying it in such a way as to make it seem she still thinks it's acceptable. She's been in the media business long enough to know that.

Either stupid or venial. Right now I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt of just being stupid.
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Old 11-03-2018, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,995 posts, read 8,914,315 times
Reputation: 18346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
I'd start by explaining to him why $35/hr is too much. After we got that settled, we could attack the more difficult material.

Black people may have been offended, I don't know. In Megyn Kelley's neighborhood, there are no black people. Even to this day. Bethlehem is a lily white progressive suburb. A few token residents but no more than that. So, she was right saying blackface was acceptable when she was growing up. I would be surprised if she knew any black people before she started Albany Law.

NBC is a hard-nosed, competitive, ideological media company. Like Fox. Cut-throat is the name of the game. Poking a rival in the eye is SOP.

MK was an obvious misfit at NBC. She didn't toe their line. I can't imagine how much her co-workers loathed her: an enemy right in their midst. And a smart and erudite one. Better looking than any of them to boot. No way was she brought in to stay.
I would like to think that a competent "journalist, political commentator, and former corporate defense attorney" would be worldly enough to get beyond the thinking of her high school.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:53 PM
 
3,764 posts, read 1,680,314 times
Reputation: 5151
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I would like to think that a competent "journalist, political commentator, and former corporate defense attorney" would be worldly enough to get beyond the thinking of her high school.
Reporting what was acceptable when she was a teenager. Shouldn't comedians also be expected to be worldly enough not to wear blackface?
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Under Moon & Star
1,606 posts, read 568,266 times
Reputation: 8968
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
It seems to me that everyone is under the eye of the collective "Thought Police", and one expresses an opinion about ANYTHING at his or her peril. Orwell's 1984 comes very much to my mind when I read reports and threads like these.
Really?

Have you read Orwell?

Because the Thought Police of 1984 were an actual secret police force of the state, a force which criminally punished dissenting thoughts. Tell me, who is being criminally punished for unpopular opinions? No one.

No.
One.

The very fact that you are able to say "Orwellian! Orwellian!" and not have the secret police come and haul you away is proof that, in fact, it is not Orwellian. Social disapprobation is not Orwellian.
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