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Old 11-12-2018, 09:45 AM
 
18,173 posts, read 9,961,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
I think we can all understand yet condemn when someone has a personal problem with another person and one resorts to violence and he shoots that person. What is much harder for us to understand is when a person uses a gun in a mass shooting to kill people that are complete strangers. It is a form of terrorism like when some fool walks into a crowded market in the Middle East and sets off a suicide vest.
It's really the same thing. The only difference is that in the second case, the person has been exposed to a constant litany of propaganda that has caused him to personalize himself as a specific victim and those other people as his specific aggressors.

Those mass shooters are, in their own minds, defending themselves.

Quote:
We have also seen murderous rampages in countries that have strict gun laws where the weapon of choice is a truck or a bladed weapon so banning guns in the US will only have those intent on murder turn to other weapons. I don't want to give anyone ideas but what would stop a sick person from getting onto a school bus with a machete? Or someone loading up a truck with barrels of gasoline and driving it into the entrance of a nightclub when the patrons are leaving?
The response to that question is, "Well, at least there would be fewer people killed."

Quote:
The problem of mass murder is a societal one. There is something that snaps in these killers that makes them think that the entire world is against them, there is no way out and they are going to murder as many people as possible.

People have become selfish, self centered and self entitled and when they fail in life they blame everyone else.

I don't know how we can turn that type of thinking around.
Well, first, what causes it?

One real problem is that social media, rather than broadening the sources of information people are exposed to, also creates "echo chambers" where people can listen to multiple sources of the same information that creates an alternate reality comprised by different facts.

So there might be a guy beside you in one corner of the elevator with his earbuds in a radical Muslim alternate reality, and the guy in the other corner of the elevator has his earbuds on and is immersed in an extreme right-wing alternate reality, while the woman in the other corner is in yet another alternate reality.

They don't stop to look around at their actual reality and see...they're okay. Everyone is just going to work, going home, doing their own things. Nobody is targeting them.

But they are immersed in their own alternate realities and are being fed: "That guy there is your enemy! He's out to get you! Act now! Before it's too late!"

And you are "that guy" to all of them.
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Old 11-12-2018, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
7,114 posts, read 5,276,090 times
Reputation: 9673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That is a problem, too. People do not understand the extent to which different groups of young people (and some not so old) have closeted themselves up in various Internet echo chambers that put them into a different world of us-versus-them-and-they-are-winning-unless-you-act-now!
What blows my mind is that it didn't come to the forefront of with the 2016 Presidential Election. People were shocked, shocked I Tell you! that DT won, unless they supported Donald Trump. No one would have been gobsmacked if Mitt Romney beat Obama in 2012.

But people are able to cocoon themselves into smaller and more narrowly defined echo chambers.

They do not realize that they see what the Algorithm thinks they want to see.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:15 PM
 
4,862 posts, read 1,580,175 times
Reputation: 7965
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
What blows my mind is that it didn't come to the forefront of with the 2016 Presidential Election. People were shocked, shocked I Tell you! that DT won, unless they supported Donald Trump. No one would have been gobsmacked if Mitt Romney beat Obama in 2012.

But people are able to cocoon themselves into smaller and more narrowly defined echo chambers.

They do not realize that they see what the Algorithm thinks they want to see.
And probably <1% understand that comment.
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Backwoods of Maine
6,943 posts, read 7,704,387 times
Reputation: 17866
There are already more than sufficient laws on the books to cover all firearms activities. Whether these laws are enforced or not, is another matter. The vast majority of firearms owners and users are law abiding. Creating more laws is ridiculous - that territory has already been covered, and nothing changes. Only the law abiding obey laws.

Those who obey the law, who own and/or use firearms safely and responsibly, should not be punished because a very tiny minority do not. By that way of thinking, we should all be deprived of our cars because the kid down the street drove around drunk, and killed someone.

If only the law abiding will obey new restrictive gun laws, then only the non-law abiding will enjoy firearms freedom. That thought makes me shudder!
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Old 11-12-2018, 01:56 PM
 
2,147 posts, read 815,680 times
Reputation: 4168
A society must progress. Activist movements are necessary to push change.

Women fought for the right to vote and to be recognized as persons with death and threats from the male dominators. Today we can work doing what are traditionally male jobs and get credit and buy our own cars and homes. But we still are paid only 70 cents on a dollar that men get paid for the same job. There is a way to go yet.

The 60s anti-establishment movement changed society forever and incidentally it was won with flowers not guns.

My farmer ancestors always had a rifle to hunt, exterminate pest and predator animals, and protect their property. Just one gun. There was no need for military-style fire arms and no need for more than one gun. And still that holds true but common sense has left the country's citizens.

Of course in the old days there weren't a lot of people shooting each other. Now because deadly weapons are in the coat pocket it is dangerous to take a walk to the store in case someone else with a gun in their pocket decides they don't like you. So the cycle of guns and killing just get worse, people are crazy paranoid of their own government and being shot in their sleep or when grocery shopping. There is a kind of mania about guns and the right to bear more than one of them.

Gun regulation needs to stop on-line buying, owning military-style firearms. Enforce a waiting period of a week or 2 after applying to own any gun so that thorough background checks can be done and check the registry to see if you already own a gun and check for any gang affiliation.

You mentioned a guerrilla force. If you want more guns under this type of scenario you will find them on the black market just like all such groups across the globe.

If you feel you need protection from your own government then you need to change your laws and you do that by getting involved in your community and effecting action not shooting your way out.
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:16 PM
 
6,538 posts, read 1,587,592 times
Reputation: 4734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitty61 View Post
A society must progress. Activist movements are necessary to push change.

Women fought for the right to vote and to be recognized as persons with death and threats from the male dominators. Today we can work doing what are traditionally male jobs and get credit and buy our own cars and homes. But we still are paid only 70 cents on a dollar that men get paid for the same job. There is a way to go yet.

The 60s anti-establishment movement changed society forever and incidentally it was won with flowers not guns.

My farmer ancestors always had a rifle to hunt, exterminate pest and predator animals, and protect their property. Just one gun. There was no need for military-style fire arms and no need for more than one gun. And still that holds true but common sense has left the country's citizens.

Of course in the old days there weren't a lot of people shooting each other. Now because deadly weapons are in the coat pocket it is dangerous to take a walk to the store in case someone else with a gun in their pocket decides they don't like you. So the cycle of guns and killing just get worse, people are crazy paranoid of their own government and being shot in their sleep or when grocery shopping. There is a kind of mania about guns and the right to bear more than one of them.

Gun regulation needs to stop on-line buying, owning military-style firearms. Enforce a waiting period of a week or 2 after applying to own any gun so that thorough background checks can be done and check the registry to see if you already own a gun and check for any gang affiliation.

You mentioned a guerrilla force. If you want more guns under this type of scenario you will find them on the black market just like all such groups across the globe.

If you feel you need protection from your own government then you need to change your laws and you do that by getting involved in your community and effecting action not shooting your way out.
Except, thats NOT how America became a nation.

We broke free from England only because LOTS of people resorted to violence, disobedience, destruction of property, etc. We celebrate historical patriots for resorting to violence.

The American Revolution, was basically a violent overthrow of a sitting govt.
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:54 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,207 posts, read 18,199,171 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Except, thats NOT how America became a nation.

We broke free from England only because LOTS of people resorted to violence, disobedience, destruction of property, etc. We celebrate historical patriots for resorting to violence.

The American Revolution, was basically a violent overthrow of a sitting govt.
The violence was organized and was run within a legal system. The American rebels set up governments and raised militias and a regular army, the Continental Army. All was done within a framework of legality that replaced the legal framework of Great Britain.
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Old 11-13-2018, 05:51 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NYUSA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way.
6,780 posts, read 1,964,948 times
Reputation: 1656
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMom View Post
Something has changed. But as you state, it's not the availability of guns. The guns have always been there.

There is no "GUN VIOLENCE", or knife violence, or bomb violence. Guns are just objects. Its "PEOPLE VIOLENCE". It's the behavior of people and their violent response and actions that has changed. That is what has increased. And that's the insidious thing. They can try to control or legislate "guns", but there is no way to control people and their actions. Even the mental health angle doesn't work because there are people who commit mass killings who have never exhibited mental health issues prior to the event.

I don't own a gun at this point. Recent events, though, surely do have me thinking "it's time". The last thing I want is for our political so-called "leaders" to tell me whether I, a hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizen with a family in an increasingly violent world, can own one or not. I believe both parties and their political elite would like nothing more than to dis-arm the "peasantry" populace if they could.

A few things that I will add that you didn't mention that may have contributed to this kind of violent acting out of frustrations are: the wage gap/corporate greed in this country and the increasing difficulty of trying to stay afloat and manage financially with little job security, the liberal attack on religions like Christianity which at the very least supply a multitude of people with a feeling of inclusion and right and wrong, the desensitizing amount of graphic violence in much of our "entertainment" and media, and our irresponsible 24/7 media channels which do nothing but promote division, anger, and distrust in their quest for "clicks" and ratings.

That being said, we all experience adversity and pain in life at one time or another. The true guilt and blame lies directly at the feet of that person who picked up that gun with the intention to harm or take the life of another human being. No excuses.

Not sure what the answers are, but it's pretty sobering when places that used to feel safe: movie theaters, churches, schools, concerts, etc. no longer completely do.
Re: bold: perhaps it is insidious although personally I think it's likely there have always been a certain number of 'crazy' people. Perhaps this is also stating the obvious but it's usually a given that 'crazy' people are unaware they are 'crazy'. Folks closest to them are often unaware as well. Until they act on the 'crazy'.

&/or create/develop cultures which rationalize, justify, legitimize the 'crazy'.

Enter stage right ...
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Old 11-13-2018, 06:55 AM
 
4,862 posts, read 1,580,175 times
Reputation: 7965
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post


Mister (0r maybe even Ms. -- but probably too much to hope for), you just put the ball up there in the cheap seats!



In the post-industrial era, this scenario applies to most workplaces as well. Most of us will adjust, but not necessarily submit; and there remains an extremely dangerous fraction of one percent. And the authoritarians have no way to identify them.
I'm female. Was a total feminist until I had a son. Then I woke up to reality and shed the brainwashing.

Seeing his future makes me weep.
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Old 11-13-2018, 07:00 AM
 
Location: USA
13,809 posts, read 7,457,578 times
Reputation: 9975
Quote:
Originally Posted by maat55 View Post
Freedom comes with a price. Sometimes the price is paid within the civilian population. Last I recall the US population is continually increasing, which means we are not in fear of killing off our society. The last thing I’m afraid of is being a victim of a mass killer. Just because it happens on occasion does not constitute a need to infringe the 2A. A mass shooting can happen in any city or country on earth.
The most recent mass shooting occurred in California which has the most restrictive gun laws, and ammunition laws in the country. "Gun Violence" is a misnomer. It is PEOPLE VIOLENCE. The guns just happened to be the tool in this instance. The elites do not want to stop inner city black on black violence, and the other largest component of "Gun Violence" are SUICIDES.
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