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Old 11-15-2018, 08:10 AM
 
7,063 posts, read 2,739,286 times
Reputation: 18917

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
These are serious questions.

Indeed, where do we draw the line?

Here's an example:



No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn - US news - Life | NBC News
If they didn't do that, no one at all would pay.

Sad, but true.

It's not like watching a child die of dehydration, in need of a quick IV fluid treatment, because the parents don't have insurance.

If you don't pay your fire taxes, you don't have fire coverage on that dwelling. Sad as it is.

(I googled his address, and saw the house. Once that house was on fire, it was gone. Small, old, wood frame house. There would be no saving it if the fire truck had to come from another county).

Last edited by ClaraC; 11-15-2018 at 08:19 AM..

 
Old 11-15-2018, 08:59 AM
 
3,689 posts, read 2,056,873 times
Reputation: 6421
There are many things to dislike the disparage the Kardashian group over but this seems to be one of the last ones we should be looking at.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Texas
42,351 posts, read 50,072,663 times
Reputation: 67315
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Understood, but I don't think that elnina was saying they shouldn't be allowed to utilize private firefighters but rather she was pointing out the growing disparity between the 'haves and the have nots'. I thought about this while looking at private schools for my grandson. Tuition for grades 1-5 at the best private elementary school in the area is $22,350 and they have more applicants than they do openings. It got me to thinking about the disparity between schools like that and public schools in the district, and it doesn't stop at schools.

The question that it raises is, should the quality of education, the excellence of police work and fire fighting all be based upon how much you can afford to pay? If so, where is the line drawn? Should the wealthy get special ambulances that can get them to the hospital quicker? Should they be treated in special hospitals where their money guarantees that they won't die waiting to be seen in the ER? Should organ transplants be doled out to the highest bidder?

I'm not claiming to have the answers to these questions but I think they merit an honest discussion and they point out a growing problem where more and more of our nation's wealth is in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
The quality of EVERYTHING goes up with more money.

Everything. Food. TVs. Cars. Chocolate. Shoes. Ski jackets.

That's kind of the point of having money.

As for public services, as long as what is available to the "have nots" is of adequate quality, I don't see any point in complaining that you get more stuff or better stuff when you have money. That's a big no doiy moment.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
24,870 posts, read 59,936,472 times
Reputation: 27192
This demontrates a type of thinkiing I see in various areas of life including schools:

It is not fair that some people have more advantages than others, therefore we must lower everyone to the lowest common denominator to make things fair.

Lets be fair about firefighting. If someone has more or better firefighters, make them stand down and let things burn so everyone has an equaly chance of being burned out.

If some schools are better than others, that is not fiar. Mix tings up and move them around until no school is any better than any other (i.e. bring all the schools down to the same level of the lowest performing school).

Makes a ton of sense. It is so important to have everything equal and meeting someone's idea of fair,that we must eliminate all forms of excellence.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 10:26 AM
 
3,341 posts, read 2,378,500 times
Reputation: 5745
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Understood, but I don't think that elnina was saying they shouldn't be allowed to utilize private firefighters but rather she was pointing out the growing disparity between the 'haves and the have nots'. I thought about this while looking at private schools for my grandson. Tuition for grades 1-5 at the best private elementary school in the area is $22,350 and they have more applicants than they do openings. It got me to thinking about the disparity between schools like that and public schools in the district, and it doesn't stop at schools.

The question that it raises is, should the quality of education, the excellence of police work and fire fighting all be based upon how much you can afford to pay?
I don't look down on our public teachers, fire fighters or police officers and I believe their work quality is probably higher than any private school teacher or security personnel.

I believe people pay for private schools to get their children/grandchildren away from the rest of the children that may come from poorer or immigrant families, those who score lower on standardized tests or cause more troubles in the school. It's a way they can self-segregate. And that's okay.

I have no problem with people hiring private companies instead of using public services. Helps the rest of us utilize the experience and expertise of the public employees.

It's all about freedom of choice.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 10:40 AM
 
2,817 posts, read 1,245,075 times
Reputation: 2170
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnina View Post
As multiple devastating wildfires raged across California, a private firefighting crew reportedly helped save Kanye West and Kim Kardashian’s home in Calabasas. The successful defense of the $60 million mansion is the most prominent example of a trend that’s begun to receive national attention: for-hire firefighters protecting homes, usually on the payroll of an insurance company with a lot at risk.

Firefighters are consistently ranked the most beloved public servants because they treat everyone equally.
But if we allow firefighting to become a two-tiered system (with one tier for the elite and another tier for everyone else), then that threatens the democratic-republican ideal of everyone contributing their fair share for the greater needs of the commonwealth.

For some - including many firefighters from municipalities - protection from a deadly wildfire isn't something that some neighbors should be able to buy when others can’t.

Is this a story of the ramifications of economic disparity in this country?

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...ighting/575887
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...est-of-us-burn

Its not that their mansion was prioritized by the public firefighting crew.

If I were the private firefighter I would have used my "right to refuse service to anyone" card.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 11:06 AM
 
Location: la la land
27,549 posts, read 11,577,585 times
Reputation: 19477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
This demontrates a type of thinkiing I see in various areas of life including schools:
It is not fair that some people have more advantages than others, therefore we must lower everyone to the lowest common denominator to make things fair.
Lets be fair about firefighting. If someone has more or better firefighters, make them stand down and let things burn so everyone has an equaly chance of being burned out.
If some schools are better than others, that is not fiar. Mix tings up and move them around until no school is any better than any other (i.e. bring all the schools down to the same level of the lowest performing school).
Makes a ton of sense. It is so important to have everything equal and meeting someone's idea of fair,that we must eliminate all forms of excellence.
That is NOT what I have said or suggested. I don't think we have to make every service equal but the question is where do we draw the line? If public schools were all safe and had reasonable class sizes then the idea of 25k a year private elementary schools would not be an issue. If the wealthy would retain their private fire departments to help others when their own property is not in jeopardy it would demonstrate that they at least have empathy for others. When the Duchess of Cambridge had her baby it was in a public NHS hospital, maybe she had private nurses or a special room - I wouldn't doubt it, but at least she demonstrated to the public that what is good enough for them is also good enough for her.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 11:14 AM
 
1,390 posts, read 552,039 times
Reputation: 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Understood, but I don't think that elnina was saying they shouldn't be allowed to utilize private firefighters but rather she was pointing out the growing disparity between the 'haves and the have nots'. I thought about this while looking at private schools for my grandson. Tuition for grades 1-5 at the best private elementary school in the area is $22,350 and they have more applicants than they do openings. It got me to thinking about the disparity between schools like that and public schools in the district, and it doesn't stop at schools.

The question that it raises is, should the quality of education, the excellence of police work and fire fighting all be based upon how much you can afford to pay? If so, where is the line drawn? Should the wealthy get special ambulances that can get them to the hospital quicker? Should they be treated in special hospitals where their money guarantees that they won't die waiting to be seen in the ER? Should organ transplants be doled out to the highest bidder?

I'm not claiming to have the answers to these questions but I think they merit an honest discussion and they point out a growing problem where more and more of our nation's wealth is in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
The wealthy can pay for whatever they want. Where I draw the line is when they want reimbursements (school vouchers) for when they utilize private services. So long as they continue to pay taxes for services, whether they use them or not, then more power to them. However, if they want to get a break on taxes because they don't use the schools or firefighters then they need to shut the hell up.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 11:26 AM
 
16,618 posts, read 17,769,585 times
Reputation: 23844
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
Understood, but I don't think that elnina was saying they shouldn't be allowed to utilize private firefighters but rather she was pointing out the growing disparity between the 'haves and the have nots'. I thought about this while looking at private schools for my grandson. Tuition for grades 1-5 at the best private elementary school in the area is $22,350 and they have more applicants than they do openings. It got me to thinking about the disparity between schools like that and public schools in the district, and it doesn't stop at schools.

The question that it raises is, should the quality of education, the excellence of police work and fire fighting all be based upon how much you can afford to pay? If so, where is the line drawn? Should the wealthy get special ambulances that can get them to the hospital quicker? Should they be treated in special hospitals where their money guarantees that they won't die waiting to be seen in the ER? Should organ transplants be doled out to the highest bidder?

I'm not claiming to have the answers to these questions but I think they merit an honest discussion and they point out a growing problem where more and more of our nation's wealth is in the hands of fewer and fewer people.
Is this a discussion on wealthy and how bad they are or a discussion n can you afford to have a privatized company do some job you hire for.

Sorry but welcome to the real world. Contrary to what the champions for the poor say, itís not evil to be rich. Obviously some people have a talent for making money.
NOBODY forces sieone to be or stay poor. Choices you make keep you in whatever station in life you end up in.

Yes. If you can afford to pay to have a private firm do what you need I have no issues with that. As far as the tax payer funded first responder services no there should be no difference, and I donít think our firefighters care. They will try and save the houses they can. Or minimize the damage. I know a lot of first responders due to the line of work Iím in and none would pick and choose what structure to save and what to let burn.
I guarantee you that a guy who owns a 60 million dollar ansion is paying astronomical property taxes. Yet he has to buy a private company to save his house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
According to conservatives, yes. They also want to eliminate public schools by slowly defunding them and giving vouchers to the wealthy for private schools.
From what I understand they want to give vouchers if you want your kid in a private school the voucher would cover some of the cost. Private schools are way better managed than public scho.
 
Old 11-15-2018, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,451 posts, read 6,865,411 times
Reputation: 14519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
This demontrates a type of thinkiing I see in various areas of life including schools:

It is not fair that some people have more advantages than others, therefore we must lower everyone to the lowest common denominator to make things fair.

Lets be fair about firefighting. If someone has more or better firefighters, make them stand down and let things burn so everyone has an equal chance of being burned out.

If some schools are better than others, that is not fair. Mix tings up and move them around until no school is any better than any other (i.e. bring all the schools down to the same level of the lowest performing school).

Makes a ton of sense. It is so important to have everything equal and meeting someone's idea of fair, that we must eliminate all forms of excellence.


Exactly!

Because at the bottom of the societal structure there's a group which are hard to motivate, and are fed a steady diet of unrealistic expectations by our shallow media. The higher paying opportunities are still out there, but they involve more preparation, and at the end of that comes entry-level employment -- the structure and regimentation of the "big long first period" which younger people are increasingly conditioned to shun.

It's only going to get worse as our society de-industializes and low-paying service jobs replace capital-intensive industrial jobs.

But one way or another, "the dues will come down".

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 11-15-2018 at 01:06 PM..
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