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Old 12-17-2018, 07:37 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,358 posts, read 1,881,293 times
Reputation: 3168

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
Problem with this definition is people will find a way to distort what you've said to legally bludgeon their politically enemies.

See "hate speech" laws.
"Free speech" types and "School prayer" types both claim that any restriction on their pet issue will lead to a totalitarian state. I see no evidence this is true in either case. The US hasn't become anti-Christian due to certain restrictions on school prayer, nor have Canada and certain European countries been taken over by the thought police.

A student can still pray in public schools - they just can't make publically visible offers for it. Same with saying personal grace over meals. As for general speech, expressing disagreements about some protected class in Europe are still allowed, just not in a way that constitutes harassment.

Note well I am not talking about just the USA. There are other democracies/republics out there beside the USA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
A statement made without corroborating proof is an assumption.
Again, you missed the point, by focusing so closely on that statement that you fail to see the broader message the OP communicates - maximizing freedom, in its purest form, leads to dangerous lawlessness. This being so, in what ways should we as a society limit individual freedom? Focusing on my introductory sentence is just nitpicking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
"Freedom is apparently the right to do anything the law allows."-- Baron de Montesquieu


In other words, every law or regulation detracts a little more from our freedom.


Phil, while you can be proud that you had the wisdom to achieve such a superannuated condition, unless you were born before ~1955, you have no idea what freedom is.(Consider that observation to be coming from the released prisoner in Plato's Allegory of the Cave.)
Again, the issue is "In what ways and what spheres of life should there be limits on our freedom?", not whether any law limits our freedom (of course any law does so).

Last edited by Phil75230; 12-17-2018 at 07:49 PM..

 
Old 12-17-2018, 07:52 PM
 
485 posts, read 207,363 times
Reputation: 1056
Freedom? It seems we have more laws forbidding us than allowing us to do things.

I can understand laws against poaching, rape, murder, especially child molestation. (Which should be grounds for execution).

Freedom. See how fast I would get arrested and fired for smoking a joint in public. Not while working, of course. But hey, drink all you want in the public, getting loud and obnoxious, even start a fight. I'm sure you would get arrested for fighting though.

Have a great evening everyone!
 
Old 12-17-2018, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
3,034 posts, read 1,105,239 times
Reputation: 5822
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I would like you to explain this statement further.

It seems to me that many people had far less freedom in the period of time before the following laws were passed:

Thirteenth Amendment
Civil Rights Act of 1866
Fourteenth Amendment
Fifteenth Amendment
First Ku Klux Klan Act
Second Ku Klux Klan Act
Third Ku Klux Klan Act
Civil Rights Act of 1875
Civil Rights Act of 1957
Civil Rights Act of 1960
Civil Rights Act of 1964
Voting Rights Act of 1965
Civil Rights Act of 1968
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1970
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1975
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1982
Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1987
Fair Housing Act
Amendments of 1988
Civil Rights Act of 1991
Voting Rights Act of 2006
And there are still plenty of Americans who do not have rights even after those phony cosmetic acts, because the American people don't want general freedom to prevail.
 
Old 12-17-2018, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
3,034 posts, read 1,105,239 times
Reputation: 5822
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I would like you to explain this statement further.

It seems to me that many people had far less freedom in the period of time before the following laws were passed:

Thirteenth Amendment
Civil Rights Act of 1866
Fourteenth Amendment
Fifteenth Amendment
First Ku Klux Klan Act
Second Ku Klux Klan Act
Third Ku Klux Klan Act
Civil Rights Act of 1875
Civil Rights Act of 1957
Civil Rights Act of 1960
Civil Rights Act of 1964
Voting Rights Act of 1965
Civil Rights Act of 1968
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1970
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1975
Voting Rights Act
Amendments of 1982
Civil Rights Restoration Act of 1987
Fair Housing Act
Amendments of 1988
Civil Rights Act of 1991
Voting Rights Act of 2006
And there are still plenty of Americans who do not have rights even after those phony cosmetic acts, because the American people don't want general freedom to prevail.

Another million people in Florida alone will be given their rights next month. But they will still be denied many rights.
 
Old 12-17-2018, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,941 posts, read 9,418,208 times
Reputation: 19093
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
And there are still plenty of Americans who do not have rights even after those phony cosmetic acts, because the American people don't want general freedom to prevail.
Well, some of those legislations were more cosmetic than anything, but others of them were very concrete...although that wasn't the point.

The point was that another poster indicated that freedom rang for everyone before the 1960s.
 
Old 12-17-2018, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
5,347 posts, read 1,435,311 times
Reputation: 7629
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLucid View Post
I’ve always thought this is a simple situation. One is free to do, be, think, say, read, hear, etc. anything and everything one wants until it interferes with the same liberties of another.
On paper that sounds fine. In reality, there is a big difference between what one person or the other considers interference.

Why? Because many humans are stupid and inconsiderate.

A person might be in a public place with their "freedom" to listen to their headphones on loud, making everyone near them hear the music as well. In their mind they either don't know or don't care that their freedom has now interfered with the freedom of others who don't want to listen to the music of someone else. Same concept for people who blast loud music in their car, loud exhaust, etc.

Same concept for folks who watch videos on speaker phone or who get in loud public arguments or who bring their toddlers on planes and restaurant who will cry.

The average American either has no idea or no care in the world when it comes to freedom to those around them. So unless you're living under a bridge, freedom is not such a simple concept in America.
 
Old 12-17-2018, 11:18 PM
 
105 posts, read 23,584 times
Reputation: 131
no victim no crime.
 
Old 12-17-2018, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,358 posts, read 1,881,293 times
Reputation: 3168
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyWifiGoesSlow View Post
no victim no crime.
or, no rapist, no crime victim. Same for less severe crimes. No workplace safety shirker, no crime victim (the workers).
 
Old 12-17-2018, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
7,991 posts, read 4,193,305 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
No, it doesn't.

That phrase is from the Declaration of Independence which is not part of the Constitution which was framed thirteen years later in 178

One of the misconceptions about the Constitution is that it was written to give everyone the maximum possible freedom. Rather, the Constitution was written to strike a balance between individual liberty and the power of the newly formed federal government to carry out responsibilities such as defense, regulation of interstate commerce, providing for a common currency, and administering justice through the courts.

Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. In a society where over 300 million people live and make a living for themselves everyone cannot simply do what they want. The importance of our Constitution and our system is that it sets up a framework for balancing rights and liberties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLucid View Post
Iíve always thought this is a simple situation. One is free to do, be, think, say, read, hear, etc. anything and everything one wants until it interferes with the same liberties of another.
That, that I have put in bold of markg91359, post. The Constitution was written to limit the power of government.

When we consistently involve the government in our personal problems, rather that work them out ourselves, we increase the power of the government and decrease our personal freedoms.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
3,358 posts, read 1,881,293 times
Reputation: 3168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
That, that I have put in bold of markg91359, post. The Constitution was written to limit the power of government.

When we consistently involve the government in our personal problems, rather that work them out ourselves, we increase the power of the government and decrease our personal freedoms.
Some people just can't work it out without the government's help. Late 19th and early 20th century. Workers (especially industrial ones) couldn't get decent pay, workplace safety, and such without the governments help. Same for women and their right to vote (among other things). Plus, other minorities (race, religion, orientation, identity, ability status) - enough said. Sure sounds like an expansion of those groups' freedoms to me.
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