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Old 12-18-2018, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
19,942 posts, read 9,418,208 times
Reputation: 19098

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
Some people just can't work it out without the government's help. Late 19th and early 20th century. Workers (especially industrial ones) couldn't get decent pay, workplace safety, and such without the governments help. Same for women and their right to vote (among other things). Plus, other minorities (race, religion, orientation, identity, ability status) - enough said. Sure sounds like an expansion of those groups' freedoms to me.
Correct, in my view. And I would also propose that politics -- which is the way we select government -- is the means by which we work through those issues, albeit sometimes unsuccessfully or, if successful, sometimes not in a timely manner. Simply "working it out", as suggested by the other poster, would usually favor the majority or those already in power. The examples you gave are excellent in that they clearly demonstrate how "working it out" often fails millions of people.

 
Old 12-18-2018, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
3,036 posts, read 1,108,617 times
Reputation: 5832
Our society imagines itself becoming more dangerous, and our freedoms shrink as we try to protect ourselves from lifestyle risks. The sum total of all these growing restrictions exceeds the expansion of political freedoms, leaving a net loss of liberty. The freedom for children to go out and play is of much greater weight than the right to vote in elections, which are a sham in the first place.

The surest way to get people to quietly surrender their freedom is with fear of being free.

Last edited by cebuan; 12-18-2018 at 02:23 AM..
 
Old 12-18-2018, 09:37 AM
 
2,605 posts, read 486,301 times
Reputation: 1389
One way to look at the limits of personal freedoms is using this example: The First Amendment prohibits Congress from limiting your free speech. Certain exceptions like inciting violence or kiddy porn do apply at times. Now, a private employer could certainly limit how you express yourself while on the job. While that employer might be stepping on your 1st Amendment rights from a practical standpoint, they can legally limit your rights. Of course, sometimes how you dress or what you say or how you decorate your desk area might not be "offensive" by any stretch of the word, except to a person who knows that is the case but will still pull the "I'm offended" card.

If your personal freedom means that you pretty much get away with anything without consequence for any of the things you say or do (i.e. getting grounded for mouthing off to your parents or getting fired from a job for saying a racist joke), then I think that personal freedom has gone too far.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 09:54 AM
 
8,646 posts, read 8,842,731 times
Reputation: 26971
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
And there are still plenty of Americans who do not have rights even after those phony cosmetic acts, because the American people don't want general freedom to prevail.
Phony and cosmetic acts??

You think abolishing slavery was phony and cosmetic?

You think giving former slaves citizenship and rights under the law was cosmetic?

You think giving former slaves the right to vote was cosmetic?

You think giving women the right to vote was cosmetic?

You think passing laws requiring that minorities have equal access to public accommodations and education was cosmetic?

You think passing a law that made it possible for minorities to vote in much of the USA was cosmetic?

Stop embarrassing yourself. Go take a course in American History before you continue posting.

I have a feeling you read a couple of bad Ayn Rand novels and you don't think anything else is important.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 04:57 PM
 
4,450 posts, read 2,362,195 times
Reputation: 3787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
"Free speech" types and "School prayer" types both claim that any restriction on their pet issue will lead to a totalitarian state. I see no evidence this is true in either case. The US hasn't become anti-Christian due to certain restrictions on school prayer, nor have Canada and certain European countries been taken over by the thought police.

A student can still pray in public schools - they just can't make publically visible offers for it. Same with saying personal grace over meals. As for general speech, expressing disagreements about some protected class in Europe are still allowed, just not in a way that constitutes harassment.

Note well I am not talking about just the USA. There are other democracies/republics out there beside the USA.

Ridiculous. Prayer laws and hate speech laws are not even in the same county, continent, planet.

Hate speech laws are politically motivated legislation that specifically protects small slivers of the population, or used to bludgeon others by that same sliver of population.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
3,036 posts, read 1,108,617 times
Reputation: 5832
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Phony and cosmetic acts??

You think abolishing slavery was phony and cosmetic?

You think giving former slaves citizenship and rights under the law was cosmetic?

You think giving former slaves the right to vote was cosmetic?

You think giving women the right to vote was cosmetic?

You think passing laws requiring that minorities have equal access to public accommodations and education was cosmetic?

You think passing a law that made it possible for minorities to vote in much of the USA was cosmetic?

Stop embarrassing yourself. Go take a course in American History before you continue posting.

I have a feeling you read a couple of bad Ayn Rand novels and you don't think anything else is important.
Why did we need 30-some acts, a new one every few years, if any of them were actually contributory to freedom. Women were given the right to vote, and half of them still don't. Florida will give a million citizens their vote for the first time next month, where have your magic rights been before?

Just sit down and write a constitution and laws that give people liberty, instead of cutting the dog's tail off a little at a time.

And go and read Ayn Rand before you associate her thinking with mine.

Last edited by cebuan; 12-18-2018 at 07:20 PM..
 
Old 12-18-2018, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Denver CO
556 posts, read 163,285 times
Reputation: 1417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
Simple sentence: Society as a whole, via their elected officials and independent judiciary, gets to decide.

However, all groups should be open to persuasion by activist groups to go along with their program (to change or repeal the law as appropriate).
How do you figure? So a group of people gets to arbitrarily place limits on the freedom of others just because they outnumber them (however slightly).

In other words, might makes right.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
7,991 posts, read 4,193,305 times
Reputation: 1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
First, the definition itself. I will say freedom means “the lack of barriers, limits, or inhibitions between what one desires and actual fulfillment of that desire”, and in the most absolute sense of the term besides. For a good metaphor, think of science documentaries showing gas molecules zipping across the screen in every direction, with some occasionally ricocheting off each other after collisions. This seems the only consistent definition of freedom I can think of. If there’s a better, more self-consistent definition, I’d like to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
That, that I have put in bold of markg91359, post. The Constitution was written to limit the power of government.
Quote:
Rather, the Constitution was written to strike a balance between individual liberty and the power of the newly formed federal government to carry out responsibilities such as defense, regulation of interstate commerce, providing for a common currency, and administering justice through the courts.
When we consistently involve the government in our personal problems, rather that work them out ourselves, we increase the power of the government and decrease our personal freedoms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230 View Post
Some people just can't work it out without the government's help. Late 19th and early 20th century. Workers (especially industrial ones) couldn't get decent pay, workplace safety, and such without the governments help. Same for women and their right to vote (among other things). Plus, other minorities (race, religion, orientation, identity, ability status) - enough said. Sure sounds like an expansion of those groups' freedoms to me.
As you said first the definition itself.
personal freedom
: freedom of the person in going and coming, equality before the courts, security of private property, freedom of opinion and its expression, and freedom of conscience subject to the rights of others and of the public (emphasis to further iterate free to decide for ourselves without government interference)

The Constitution does not grant us personal freedoms. Personal freedoms are inherent. They exist because we the people exist.

Constitutional Freedom
Constitutional freedom refers to those freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Such freedoms are granted by the Constitution to its citizens and they can enjoy it under the protection of the Constitution. The freedom guaranteed under the Constitution includes the aggregate of personal, civil, and political rights of individuals. These freedoms are secured against invasion by the government or any of its agencies. Freedom of religion, speech, and press as guaranteed by the first amendment and the due process clause of fourteenth amendment are certain basic freedoms guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution to its citizens.

Our personal freedoms are protected by the Constitution which defines the responsibilities of the government. The Bill of Rights derived from the Constitution farther iterates our protections in respect to personal freedom.


Decent pay and workplace safety? Inherent or Granted by Constitutional Law.

A wage stamp by government means this is how much you are worth and is a price control on labor. Your value in the market place may be more, or less, but guaranteed in the open market is a federal mandate to your value. Hint, an employer does not have to pay a person any more than the federal mandate. (not inherent and falls under economic freedoms)

Workplace safety OSHA, does the government agency of the u.s. derive its powers from the Constitution or the people? Workplace safety effects commerce, consult commerce clause of the Constitution. (granted by constitution)

The right to vote? Inherent or Granted by Constitutional Law.

This is a conflict. Since the voters are extracted from the same social construct as the rulers. All people are sovereign (inherent) and the act of the vote gives the people power to rule in their very freedom ... freedom of conscience.

imo the examples given are that of Constitutional (except for voting, could be either/or) freedoms; not that of personal freedoms.
Quote:
Some people just can't work it out without the government's help.
True. Example the Bathroom Bill. Because people could not seemingly work that (sex) out on their own ... some one came along and made a federal case out of it. Which created a legal, confusion in public privacy.

In some cases liken that of lunch room meals in government schools. Rather than an adoption by the schools to provide their students with a more balance meal and that be the end of it. The higher authority in government became more involved and parents lost their right to send homemade lunches to school with their children. (consensus parents lack the knowledge in proper nutrition)

These are personal freedoms.

Mom gets called on by social services because she allowed her 8 year old daughter to walk their family dog near their home. (one example of many) Some thing that decades ago wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Yet now, parents are calling on the lawmakers so as to regain/retain their freedom (Free Range Parenting law) ---

When we consistently involve the government in our personal problems, rather that work them out ourselves, we increase the power of the government and decrease (place a limit on) our personal freedoms.

Every time we involve the government it creates a need; from that need a new agency (CPS 1974) is created, which is then funded by our taxes to do what? Help raise our kids and reduce our parental rights, which are inherent, because we the people exist.
 
Old 12-18-2018, 09:05 PM
 
8,646 posts, read 8,842,731 times
Reputation: 26971
Quote:
Originally Posted by cebuan View Post
Why did we need 30-some acts, a new one every few years, if any of them were actually contributory to freedom. Women were given the right to vote, and half of them still don't. Florida will give a million citizens their vote for the first time next month, where have your magic rights been before?

Just sit down and write a constitution and laws that give people liberty, instead of cutting the dog's tail off a little at a time.

And go and read Ayn Rand before you associate her thinking with mine.
So you think freedom is automatic? Just ask for it and you get it? Plus, its real obvious what it even is for everyone? None of those things are true.

That's really juvenile thinking. What you and I consider "freedom" is the product of conflict and discourse. Freedom is a collection of ideas that has been evolving since the Magna Carta was written back in the Thirteenth Century.

I really can't have a discussion with someone who seems so uninformed and naive about American history. If you were informed, you'd understand the struggle that was involved in securing rights for minorities, women, and those who were not part of an oligarchy when this country was formed. You don't snap your fingers and solve those problems. They take debate, laws, and a willingness to enforce those laws. In the case of slavery it took a war to resolve the problem. Why do you think there are so many lawyers in America? It has a lot to do with the fact that freedom can be a very nebulous thing at times.

BTW, the reason half the electorate doesn't vote is because they CHOOSE not too. One has the freedom to choose to vote or not vote in this country.

I have read Ayn Rand and it often enables me to recognize someone who ignores history and instead focuses on faulty ideas.
 
Old 12-19-2018, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Cebu, Philippines
3,036 posts, read 1,108,617 times
Reputation: 5832
^^^ Please lose the attitude that everyone who challenges your own confirmation bias is ignorant, uneducated, naive and juvenile.


Has it occurred to you that people choose not to vote because the structure of a modern republic leaves the electorate powerless to effect political change, and therefore has no true freedom, despite that long string of Acts?

Last edited by cebuan; 12-19-2018 at 02:16 AM..
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