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Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
25,344 posts, read 60,702,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
A fertilized human embryo is a complete human being.

Just because it's at an early stage doesn't change anything. We don't distinguish a newborn, infant, teenager, adult, and elderly person as being on different levels of "humanity", so it makes not sense to continue that earlier on to and through the very beginnings.

We're good at playing games with rules when it comes to us, and use different ones for all other creatures, even though the biology and nature is the same.
I think this is probably correct. We cannot rely on science to tell us when a person is a person. They keep changing that as they learn what they did not know before.

Thus, to me the abortion issue is not about whether or when someone is a person, but when and whether we find it acceptable to kill a person under certain circumstances.

In our society, some killing is OK and other killing is not ok. Capital punishment, self defense, defense of "castle", defense of others, killing persons declared by our government to be our "enemy" killing people by accident if the accident was unavoidable. Other killings are kind of ok. for example killing someone with your car, doing something stupid, or by selling something that you have not figured out and eliminate every possible way someone could hurt themselves with it. In that situation you have civil penalties, but not criminal (usually). Turning off life support is killing someone. It looks like suicide is also going to become an acceptable killing, at least under some conditions.

We permit people to drive cars (and inmost places drive cars while texting or otherwise using cell phones). We know a certain number of people will die because of this permission, and we elect to accept those deaths as long as the number of deaths or percentage of people who die due to this use does not exceed a certain threshold. There are many many other things we elect to allow knowing the result will be that some people will die.

So the issue is whether killing someone in this situation is acceptable to us as a society in these circumstances, not whether a developing person is or is not a person. We are not fully developed until we are roughly 26 years old. If the debate were only about full development, then parents could elect to abort their child up to age 26.
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Old Yesterday, 12:57 PM
 
5,831 posts, read 3,585,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatTX View Post
Elective abortion that late in the pregnancy is illegal in most states. Women simply can't almost carry their pregnancy to term and then decide they want an abortion. If a woman is a few weeks from giving birth and in danger due to the pregnancy, she is delivered via c-section. Late-term abortions after 20 weeks, but before viability, are likewise performed when the pregnant woman is in danger, or when fetal abnormalities were discovered well into the pregnancy.
Yes, I understand that well. However, I was simply pointing out a fundamental inconsistency in the thinking of people who meticulously distinguish human beings (fetuses) who are unborn as "lesser" than born human beings (babies), and thus morally disposable, but yet would be horrified at an elective abortion at 8 or 9 months.

I realize that most people who are pro-choice don't necessarily take such an extreme stance, but I have definitely heard people state that they believe abortion should be fully legal up to the moment of birth, as the fetus is not truly human / not a person / has no rights, until it is physically separated from the mother. At least they are being consistent.
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM
 
1,391 posts, read 678,740 times
Reputation: 5958
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
Yes, I understand that well. However, I was simply pointing out a fundamental inconsistency in the thinking of people who meticulously distinguish human beings (fetuses) who are unborn as "lesser" than born human beings (babies), and thus morally disposable, but yet would be horrified at an elective abortion at 8 or 9 months.

I realize that most people who are pro-choice don't necessarily take such an extreme stance, but I have definitely heard people state that they believe abortion should be fully legal up to the moment of birth, as the fetus is not truly human / not a person / has no rights, until it is physically separated from the mother. At least they are being consistent.
Those people are misinformed. Once it can survive outside the womb, abortion is really a non-issue because the delivery will be via c section or induced labor and if the woman does not want the infant, it will be placed for adoption. It would be illegal to deliver and kill a newborn infant.
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Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM
 
5,831 posts, read 3,585,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatTX View Post
Those people are misinformed. Once it can survive outside the womb, abortion is really a non-issue because the delivery will be via c section or induced labor and if the woman does not want the infant, it will be placed for adoption. It would be illegal to deliver and kill a newborn infant.
The question is not what is legal or illegal. Laws change, and are different according to time and place.

The question is what is moral or immoral. If a woman has an absolute moral right to determine what happens to her body, and the fetus is in her body, does she or does she not have an absolute right to determine the fate of the fetus?

Does the stage of development of the fetus matter, and if so, why? Does the health of the fetus matter, and if so, why?
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM
 
13,542 posts, read 14,214,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
The question is not what is legal or illegal. Laws change, and are different according to time and place.

The question is what is moral or immoral. If a woman has an absolute moral right to determine what happens to her body, and the fetus is in her body, does she or does she not have an absolute right to determine the fate of the fetus?

Does the stage of development of the fetus matter, and if so, why? Does the health of the fetus matter, and if so, why?
Morality is subjective. One reason you have the debate what one person is ok with the other isnít. Whatís a sin to some is not to others. As to abortion it has to be left up to the individual alone. No one elseís business.
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Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM
 
1,391 posts, read 678,740 times
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Many of our laws are based on current morality. And currently, our laws protect viable fetuses from being birthed and killed, but it is legal to abort non-viable ones. Which aligns with current societal moral beliefs re. abortion held by a majority of people.
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Old Yesterday, 06:38 PM
 
5,831 posts, read 3,585,504 times
Reputation: 14679
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui View Post
Morality is subjective. One reason you have the debate what one person is ok with the other isnít. Whatís a sin to some is not to others. As to abortion it has to be left up to the individual alone. No one elseís business.
This is a subjective opinion which you are presenting as fact. If abortion is left up to the individual alone, then if a woman who is 9 months pregnant can find a means of killing her healthy fetus shortly before birth, that should be legal and is no one else's business. Many (most?) people would not agree with this.
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,685 posts, read 4,952,270 times
Reputation: 16966
A fetus can inherit. A fetus can be murdered, and I mean like a bullet to the belly not abortion. These and others make me think early in the pregnancy. I don't know enough to argue conception, the next day, month, etc.


It's a baby if you want the child. A fetus if you don't.
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Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
 
13,542 posts, read 14,214,634 times
Reputation: 11182
Quote:
Originally Posted by saibot View Post
This is a subjective opinion which you are presenting as fact. If abortion is left up to the individual alone, then if a woman who is 9 months pregnant can find a means of killing her healthy fetus shortly before birth, that should be legal and is no one else's business. Many (most?) people would not agree with this.
Letís not get overly dramatic. We have laws on the books that regulate abortion. late term abortions are not done for funnies and never will be. Most abortions happen before 10 or 12 weeks.
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Old Yesterday, 07:38 PM
 
Location: DC metropolitan area
604 posts, read 219,403 times
Reputation: 672
"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb."

Psalm 139:13
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